Type 6: The search for Security, Certainty, and Courage

Creek: 00:00:02

Welcome back to Fathoms. We are talking about type 6 today. Sometimes I can't get these two to shut up, so I just have to start talking.

Lindsey: 00:00:11

Sorry, dad.

Creek: 00:00:13

There we go. All I need is respect for my children.

Abram: 00:00:20

That parenting style will only get you so far. Just.

Creek: 00:00:24

That's what they say. That's what they say. So here we go.

Abram: 00:00:28

It might produce six children, you know, is what I'm saying.

Creek: 00:00:31

You produced six children.

Abram: 00:00:33

A child who's a six, is what I'm saying. If you demand respect, we can cut this out. Sorry.

Creek: 00:00:41

Great point.

Lindsey: 00:00:45

And we've just dived right in.

Creek: 00:00:49

Here we go. So we're just gonna dive straight into defining our terms so we can get straight into the episode. Abra, why don't you start this time?

Michael: 00:01:00

Sure.

Abram: 00:01:01

Type a category of people or things having common characteristics. A person or thing symbolizing or exemplifying the ideal or defining characteristics of something.

Creek: 00:01:13

Strategy, A plan of action or policy designed to achieve a major or overall aim.

Lindsey: 00:01:21

Pattern. A regular and intelligible form or sequence discernible in certain actions or situations.

Creek: 00:01:28

Model A simplified and provisional description of a system or process to assist calculations and predictions.

Abram: 00:01:36

Now, a few words for what we might expect, because we're doing type 5 1, which equals 6. Secure, not subject to threat. Certain to remain or continue safe or are safe and unharmed.

Lindsey: 00:01:54

Skeptic. A person inclined to question or doubt accepted opinions.

Creek: 00:02:03

And then finally, we have loyal, giving, or showing firm and constant support or allegiance to a person or institution.

So things to keep in mind for this episode, once again, so, so important with this type as well, to keep in mind that we are not necessarily always defining subtypes.

So that is the instinct or instinctual bias and its relationship to the type or the strategy and how they kind of interact and create a unique subtype. So our episodes may have a bent towards a particular subtype. So just kind of keep that bias in mind and do your own work in trying to. In.

In order to kind of nuance the explanations of each type of. For the beginners.

Lots of new language could be thrown around in this episode, so make sure to check the show notes for any additional information or reach out to us if you have any questions. And finally, keep that curiosity on.

Lindsey: 00:03:11

On. Just keep it on.

Creek: 00:03:13

Just keep it on. Keep your curiosity on for this episode. Uh, and both. Both in. How. How does this apply to me? And also how does this apply to others?

So with that in mind, let's just jump straight into the episode.

Abram: 00:03:37

The narrative Enneagram.

Terry: 00:03:41

I'm also going to do the six. I know a little bit about this.

So first I want to say there's two versions of Six and for Sixes, it's all about the outside reference point and the outside family, workplace, authority. You put your attention out in order to seek. You're seeking safety and security out here. If I can manage this out here, I'm going to feel safe inside.

And it shows up in two ways.

Shows up as a phobic six, someone that if fear is the core motivator here, if I do what I should, if I'm the good little boy scout or girl scout, I can relax. I know what's going to happen. I keep them happy, everything's okay.

The counterphobic 6 uses this outside reference point, but challenges it, pushes against it. Can I trust you? Are you going to be there? Is this okay? But it's a challenging kind of energy.

I remember sitting in a workshop once with Sixes and phobic sixes and counterphobic sixes, and it's like not any bone in my body could do that. Actually, I have both. As it turns out.

I actually, when I was in corporate America, took the only position against something, against all these other at that point, white men. And I won with the higher ups. So that made me really happy. But anyway, Sixes can have both, but we tend to have one. So it's all about being prepared.

I mean, you can even laugh at getting ready for this podcast, right? Being prepared, what could go wrong? Making plans. And again, this can be a gift if you don't focus on it too much.

You know, if you focus on the one thing in a million that can go wrong, that's not so great. Another characteristic of 6 is doubt. You have an idea and then you doubt it.

And also Sixes have a tendency to share only the negative things about themselves. So I'm going to work right now to share the positive things with Sixes, which is that we are very loyal.

If we say we're going to do something, we will do it. If we are committed to being good friends, good partners, good, good people. And so we care a lot.

So again, our motivation, my motivation is to be safe, to be certain, to be secure. And when I started this path, it was like, about the movement to come in to be my own authority. Sixes have.

I shouldn't just speak for myself, but Sixes have a relationship with authority. That is, you put yourself outside, you're looking at the authority that you want to be able to trust because the lack of trust inside is great.

And so as one encounters this journey.

If you're a Six, it's really about coming inside and finding your own ground, finding your own sense, finding your own purpose, if you will, and just knowing that the safety isn't going to come from outside.

It's only going to come when you have a sense inside yourself that no matter what happens, if the worst case happens, fine, that you're supported, you're connected to something greater. It's an internal experience. The head can calm down. It can be in touch with the heart and my own emotions and my own feelings.

I also want to say here that our colleague Peter o' Hanrahan talks about Sixes have a very sensitive alarm system, maybe more sensitive than most, a startle response. And boy, do I know this so well that you react quickly. There's a sense of hyper vigilance, a sense of being on alert.

And as I've learned more about the somatic work and really being able to regulate a nervous system and the anxiety that arises, I think it's really important for all of us actually, as we encounter the Enneagram, to recognize the importance of our nervous systems and how we're wired. It's taken a lot of judgment off of myself of why am I so reactive.

I tell you what, I wouldn't wish it on anybody, but it can help us understand and be kind and get the kind of tools that we know now through people like Marion, to work with these, to help us ground and find who we are in ourselves. And this is all about courage. And again, a teacher once said to me, it's just courage to get up every day and take the next step.

And there's a dedication and a commitment that Sixes have to keep, to keep on keeping on.

Creek: 00:08:57

Thanks, Terri. As I hear you, one of the things that were words that comes to me is like having compassion for ourselves. And this is part of I.

We can maybe talk about this later in terms of the growth process, but really meeting ourselves wherever we are, with a sense of compassion. And I hear you naming that Enneagram Institute.

Michael: 00:09:17

So the Six, the poor Sixes, worry warts of planet Earth. So the Pathfinder, the Loyalist, really love a sense of security.

When I'm healthy as a Six, there's a natural team spirit that I bring to whatever I'm doing. There's a sense that it's like all for one, one for all three musketeers. We're in it for each other. We support each other.

There's this capacity to be able to stand back and guide from the outside and there's also the ability to lead. And so when I'm really healthy as a type 6, the sense of democracy for everyone seems to be really strong in them.

This capacity to fight for the underdog again is certainly one of the senses things that sixes do. And they have this interesting relationship between fear and courage.

There's a lot of Sixes, you know, they will say when they wake up in the morning, they are hit with kind of a this intense anxiety, worry about things could go wrong, just that sense of angst that greets them.

And so there's this way that I start to be on guard for anything, you know, whatever it is I attach to that angst, and I, you know, become a troubleshooter. And in my life, and sometimes that's a great skill, and other times it's held neurotically where I'm just doing it all the time.

And what I've noticed about sixes in really emergency situations where courage is required is they come forward and they jump right into the fire and they handle it. And then when they come out of it, they're shaken and they're going, oh, my God, how did I do that? And I'll be saying to them, you were awesome.

Where did you get that courage? And they say, I have no idea. I hope it comes back again one day. But there'll be this way that they're just under pressure.

They can, you know, they forget their worried head center and they just go into action and do remarkable, courageous things. So it's kind of a flip, you know, a relationship between fear and courage that I see going back and forth.

And one of the things, you know, that is kind of enduring about endearing about type Sixes is they seem to have a real need to make sure that you see them in a balanced way.

So if I say to one of my coaching clients, you know, I want to tell you how awesome you are, and then I tell them, they'll immediately come back with what's not awesome about them. So I'll do this thing where I'll say, okay, Bill, I'm going to tell you what I see as being really beautiful in you.

I'm going to ask you to refrain from telling me what's awful in you. And there's almost like this dedication to the truth. You've got to see the whole balance of who I am.

So when I'm healthy, you know, we say that sixes can land in quiet mind. They have a strong intuition about what's going wrong.

One of the ways one of them Put it is that I have this capacity to sense the four corners of reality as I'm right here present and not, you know, not in my worried state of mind. But as I become less healthy, fear and anxiety tends to run me. And so I'm always in a sense on the outlook for anything that could go wrong.

And I start to also really mistrust the people around me. But when I'm healthy, I'm really such a unitive factor in people coming together and taking on team action.

Abram: 00:12:36

Ata.

Mario: 00:12:39

So type 6 is striving to feel secure. For us, this strategy is all about recognizing and mitigating and preparing for threat.

A lot of people talk about loyalty with the six, and we think that's kind of a second order outcome as part of a desire to feel secure. And I honestly don't think that Sixes are any more loyal than anybody else, quite frankly. I mean, I think that's a real misnomer about Sixes.

And I've also seen it lead to a lot of mistyping, for example, twos or nines or others who will say, well, I'm really loyal, or transmitting subtypes or even preserving subtypes. Yeah, I'm really loyal, so I must be a six.

Maria Jose: 00:13:28

And I think that that's why many times under different kind of labels for the six, Sixes have a hard time identifying as a six because they're talking about these second order things that you're talking about.

But when you look at it as striving to feel secure, the logic that's behind, I don't know, wanting to be loyal because if I'm loyal to the group, I feel more secure, and if I'm the guardian or a good soldier, I feel more secure because I'm fulfilling my duty and people will keep me here as part of this group. So that's kind of the rationale for six is doing the things that we see them doing.

It's finding, as you said, the threats, mitigating them, being prepared for problems, and looking at the authority in general, to people in general, but especially to the authorities, and seeing if there are any weak arguments or deceptive logic that can put them at risk.

Mario: 00:14:41

Explaining, because I don't know if we hit on this yet, but explaining what we mean by second order outcomes is important because a lot of the labels, a lot of the ideas about the types are related to something that serves something deeper. And what we tried to do with the strategies is get down to that real kernel of what it means to be a particular type.

So the six Is striving to feel secure. And then that can express itself in lots of different ways. And loyalty is one of those ways that we might see in a lot of sixes.

But sixes can also be really duplicitous and kind of jump from strong person to strong person if that is a way to feel secure. So when we talk about these second order consequences or outcomes or behaviors, that's what we mean. It serves the strategy.

Now we do see a tendency for sixes to be very challenging for in other people. Some of them can be really rigorous about questioning others and pushing back on ideas and plans and spotting deceptive logic and so forth.

So they're always. They're kind of thinking, can I trust this person? What is the flaw in their argument? What do they really want? What are they hiding?

So they can really pull on anything that even feels or looks like a loose thread. Now that serves a great purpose, right? We need sixes in our world to protect us or alert us to dangers. We need part of this in ourselves, right?

This little part of a six or this little application of this strategy because it serves a very real need, as do all these strategies under stress. What we see with sixes is that they become overly conservative and risk avoidant.

And I can't tell you how many sixes I have coached when they get to senior positions where they start running into trouble because they are stuck in their ways or they're risk avoidant or they're not trying new ways of doing things.

And in an ever changing world, this desire to be too conservative and risk averse or this desire to be conservative and avoid risks can undermine them professionally. So that's something that sixers really need to watch out for.

Maria Jose: 00:17:02

We do need to consider the transmitting six. Sometimes we think of sixes as almost paralyzed, not taking any risks or any actions that could imply that they were there. Threats.

And especially with the transmitting six, it's not the case. You can see a version of the 6 that it's more assertive again or that takes more risks, but it's not without anxiety.

So I think that the difference between like an 8, for example, and a transmitting 6 is that maybe the 8 feels more confidence than the 6 does, but the 6 might take the same risks because it's almost. The anxiety is even worse if I'm standing there looking at the risks than if I take them. So it's a different version that looks.

Doesn't look like the typical six that we see in the literature, but it's still a six.

Lindsey: 00:18:07

Well, we are so excited to welcome to the podcast Ben Campbell. Campbell or Campbell? I always wonder when I encounter that last name.

Michael: 00:18:15

How.

Lindsey: 00:18:16

How should we say it? What as society should we do with your last name?

Ben Campbell: 00:18:23

I think maybe a long time it would have been Camp Bell, but just Campbell these days. Campbell is fine.

Lindsey: 00:18:29

Yeah, Campbell. Okay.

Creek: 00:18:30

Your ancestors had had the craft of making bells specifically for camps like Bear Bells.

Ben Campbell: 00:18:38

I have no idea. I've heard Campbell actually means. Means crooked mouth, which is apparently because my clan was a traitor.

Kind of like the people who perpetrated the Red Wedding in Game of Thrones. Yeah, yeah. T r A I. T O r. Yes.

Lindsey: 00:18:55

Oh, fascinating.

Ben Campbell: 00:18:56

We're a bunch of crooked sleaze bags, apparently. Which is why there's so many of us. We destroyed all of our enemies and then moved to America.

Creek: 00:19:04

Wow, that's amazing.

Ben Campbell: 00:19:06

And if anyone who knows me, that's obviously true.

Creek: 00:19:09

Yeah, yeah. Just cannot be trusted. So you're a six, right?

Ben Campbell: 00:19:17

Yes, yes. I know a thing or two about trust.

Creek: 00:19:21

Amazing. Amazing.

Lindsey: 00:19:24

That's awesome. Well, we're really excited to chat with you today and really just have enjoyed all my conversations with you so far.

And so we thought you'd be a great person to kind of talk with us about enneagram6 and what that is, what it's like to be you. So thanks for being here.

Ben Campbell: 00:19:38

Yeah, thanks for having me.

Terry: 00:19:39

We.

Lindsey: 00:19:40

Yeah, we. We want to get started with a few rapid fire questions. So just buckle up because this can get. This part gets a little wild. Are you ready?

Ben Campbell: 00:19:50

Yep.

Lindsey: 00:19:53

Guys, do you want to go first? You want me to take it?

Abram: 00:19:56

I got one. Okay, go for it. So being one with a crooked mouth in your ancestry, if you could.

If you could have dinner with any historical figure and ask them one question, what would it be?

Ben Campbell: 00:20:16

It reminds me of Those, like, the 36 questions to fall in love with somebody.

Creek: 00:20:22

That's our plan, actually.

Ben Campbell: 00:20:25

Let me see.

Lindsey: 00:20:26

This is our first date.

Ben Campbell: 00:20:29

Do they have to be dead?

Creek: 00:20:31

They'll be dead by the end of dinner.

Abram: 00:20:33

Doesn't have to be. No, I'm not going to adhere to rules here.

Ben Campbell: 00:20:36

Yeah, I mean, the person who comes to mind would be the Dalai Lama, and I would be curious to ask him what he thinks about this. The idea that the Dalai Lama is a reincarnation, what that experience is like for him.

Creek: 00:20:55

Interesting.

Lindsey: 00:20:57

I thought you were gonna say, I'd be interested to know what he thinks about this podcast. That's where I was like, oh, also true.

Ben Campbell: 00:21:05

Listen to fathoms, Mr. Gyazo.

Creek: 00:21:10

Okay, my question is, you have to Make a candle, that is. If someone were to smell it, they'd be like, oh, that's Ben in autumn.

Abram: 00:21:25

What?

Ben Campbell: 00:21:28

I don't know about this date, guys.

Creek: 00:21:32

I'm coming off of being sick, so my brain's doing some wild things.

Ben Campbell: 00:21:38

Oh, boy. You said what scent?

Creek: 00:21:44

Yeah, like if you maybe put a couple together.

Ben Campbell: 00:21:49

Yeah, I think there'd be something crisp to it, like a refreshing scent. If you could somehow get a candle to smell like a fall morning.

Creek: 00:22:02

Yes.

Ben Campbell: 00:22:03

That's when I usually feel like I'm at my best.

Creek: 00:22:06

And what's the Ben component in there? Like, what is your scent?

Ben Campbell: 00:22:12

The clarity and the gentleness. I think when I'm really in my gift, it just kind of feels like. Feels like a fall morning. Like, it's crisp, it's easy to be with.

Yeah, I love that clear sky.

Creek: 00:22:32

I'm on board. We'll have a link to Ben's merch in the show notes.

Lindsey: 00:22:40

Okay, so, gosh, I can't follow up these questions. These are good ones, guys. Bravo. So for our listeners who don't know Ben's work, his work, say a brief thing about your work.

We'll have links in the show notes. People can find that stuff. But just in like a 5 to 10 second nutshell, what do you do for the listeners in your own words?

Ben Campbell: 00:23:06

I use the enneagram and nature based practices to help support and cultivate the inner wildness of modern humans in modern life.

Lindsey: 00:23:18

Yes. And I have attended his workshop and it is fantastic. So you should definitely check it out.

So my question for you is, because you spend a lot of time in nature, tell me a story about what's your most crazy wild encounter with wildlife.

Ben Campbell: 00:23:37

Two things come to mind. One, if we're really talking about animals, was just a few weeks ago and we're walking in the woods and a moose crashes right in front of me.

And we both froze and hid behind trees because I don't know how many people know this, but moose are a lot more dangerous than anything else in.

Abram: 00:23:56

The woods in Maine.

Ben Campbell: 00:23:59

And if it's the wrong time of year, they will just charge. So we were kind of freaked out by that.

The other thing that comes to mind is being almost stuck on a mountain in the middle of winter because I did not have the right gear and I underestimated it. And I remember having to kind of chimney my way up between two walls of ice.

Creek: 00:24:26

Wait, you're going up the mountain or you're.

Ben Campbell: 00:24:30

Yeah.

Creek: 00:24:32

Wow. Wait, in order to get off or what?

Ben Campbell: 00:24:36

Well, I got up past a kind of hairy spot, which then would have been too dangerous to go back down that way, so I had to keep going up. I knew the way down on the other side would be. Be safer.

Creek: 00:24:46

Oh.

Ben Campbell: 00:24:47

So I kind of just had to stick with it.

Mario: 00:24:50

Wow.

Abram: 00:24:50

Wow.

Ben Campbell: 00:24:51

Yeah.

Lindsey: 00:24:52

Intense.

Abram: 00:24:53

You survived both those moments, and you're here.

Ben Campbell: 00:24:56

I did, as far as I know.

Abram: 00:25:00

We'll have to ask the Dali Lama which ver. Which version of you is here, too.

Creek: 00:25:06

Amazing. All right, so, Ben, you've been around Enneagram for a while, and so I'd love to hear a little bit of that story.

Kind of your introduction to it, as well as kind of your. What was it like to kind of find that pattern of sixness in your life?

Ben Campbell: 00:25:28

Well, I learned it from my mom when I was about 13, because she was going through the Enneagram Institute training around then. I had always been a very anxious kid.

I could come up with any kind of crazy scenario to be scared of, and I felt kind of crazy or broken based on that. Didn't seem like other people around me suffered from the same thing. I would always hope that I would grow out of it.

Like, hopefully by the time I'm adult, this won't happen anymore. Right. And learning about the type 6 pattern just gave me context for it. So I remember feeling like, oh, I'm not crazy. This is normal.

Not everybody has this, but millions of people do have this, and it's okay. And there are adults who seem like they've got everything together, who have their own version of what I've been feeling is this crazy fear.

So it was very comforting to know that I had a lot of company and what I thought was just being kind of broken.

Creek: 00:26:40

When did you discover or understand the pattern of sixness?

Ben Campbell: 00:26:46

Pretty right away.

Creek: 00:26:48

Okay.

Ben Campbell: 00:26:50

I remember we had the wisdom of the Enneagram book. I was reading it, and my mom was trying to tighten me. She thought I was a four at first.

And I read they have a little quiz at the beginning of each type chapter in that book. And I read the four quiz and was like, some of it.

Then I read the six quiz, and I remember being in the passenger seat of the car, just going like, yep, yep, yep, yep, yep, yep, yep, yep, yep, yep. Like, it was pretty black and white.

Creek: 00:27:16

Wow. Interesting. Have you. Have you considered any other numbers since then?

Ben Campbell: 00:27:25

There have been moments I'll hear someone describe a particular pattern, and it just is really like, oh, I have that pretty badly. But each time, what that's resulted in is, yeah, I also have that pattern, but it comes up in certain situations, and it's not my default.

And generally speaking, the sixness is what's underlying all of it. So sometimes I have these two patterns or these five patterns, but then underneath of it, that basic fear of the six is still there.

Like I'm doing all this, you know, I'm paying too much attention to someone else or I'm withdrawing. Underneath it is this fear of not having support.

Lindsey: 00:28:05

So you mentioned that your mom was training in with the Enneagram Institute.

Ben Campbell: 00:28:09

Yeah.

Lindsey: 00:28:10

Did you follow suit and train with Enneagram Institute? Did you go through a different school? What has your training looked like? And what.

What's the model of the Enneagram that you kind of find yourself using most often?

Ben Campbell: 00:28:23

I'm definitely Enneagram Institute, Riso Hudson, primarily.

So I like to say I got Enneagram certified instead of getting a master's, because I did it right after I graduated college, like right after the summer after and the two years after that were kind of doing side gig jobs as working as a nanny while completing my essays for the certification. So, yeah, I got certified as soon as I could, basically. And that still, I'd say, is my primary lens.

There are other things that have been worked in there, but overall, my core Enneagram teaching is pretty orthodox. Enneagram Institute and then the nature based work is something I layer in on top of it.

I don't see it as actually changing any of the fundamentals that I learned.

Lindsey: 00:29:14

Yeah.

Did you kind of put those pieces together on your own or was there somebody that you were like that you saw using nature with Enneagram ideas, or how did that come about for you?

Ben Campbell: 00:29:28

I saw people using psychological and spiritual concepts with nature, and so I knew that could be done. At first it was with the Animas Valley Institute. They do nature and soul retreats, they do vision quests, things like that.

I did a workshop with them when I was 20, which was before I did the Enneagram training.

And more recently, I take classes at the Primitive Skills School in Maine, which I didn't know, but they also do psycho spiritual work in nature there. And a lot of the concepts were the same.

So I saw these practices being done and how powerful it was on individuals and how they'd be transformed and resourced and they could work through their challenges and access their gifts more easily. And then I went to Enneagram workshops and I never saw that.

And I'm like, well, you can just take the same principles these people have already figured out and apply it to this system. We're using. And I've experimented with that, and it seems to work pretty well, man.

Abram: 00:30:26

Well, anybody that is a fan of Bill Plotkin, I gain more respect of. So I love that, man. Yeah. For anybody listening, that is the guy that runs the Animus Institute.

Ben Campbell: 00:30:40

Yes.

Abram: 00:30:40

Yeah.

Well, one of the things that we've been asking each of the humans that we've had on, like yourself, to my knowledge, is to have you describe yourself using kind of five specific adjectives. What five words would you use to primarily describe yourself?

Ben Campbell: 00:31:01

I saw this was something you were going to ask, and I tried not to think about it too much. One word that won't go away is thoughtful. That's felt true for a really long time.

And kind of the deliberate thoughtful and also just the considerate aspect of thoughtfulness. It's kind of hard for me to not be thoughtful in both of those senses. I'd say sincere. That's something I've heard mirrored to me a lot.

Mischievous, almost impishly mischievous. Maybe that's the crooked mouth talking. And then I suppose I need two more. Even though I don't always identify with it.

What I hear more than anything is grounded. So I'll claim that. And I'm also going to claim brave.

Lindsey: 00:32:01

What a great list.

Abram: 00:32:04

Yeah. These are very unique in comparison to the other boring humans that have. The other humans that have mentioned their words.

Lindsey: 00:32:13

I got choked up when you said brave. Like, that was like emotion. I just. I love that, the way you said that. I'll go ahead and claim brave.

Creek: 00:32:21

Like, yeah, mischievous is the one that kind of sticks out to me as the odd one of the bunch. Talk a little bit more about that. What does that look like? How does that present itself?

Ben Campbell: 00:32:36

I think it's been following me and this conversation, but I can tend to be too serious. But the more in the zone I am, the more I'm really here with the people I'm with. And this includes when I'm teaching.

There's just this streak of humor that finds its way out, and I don't expect it. And it just, like, just seems to be part of how I deliver information. And I also, I find, feels like the world needs mischief, especially now.

And I just feel really drawn to that kind of as a way of shaking things up. It's like this. It's like this part of me that sits on my shoulder and reminds me when I'm being too serious.

Or you could call it like my version of a trickster archetype who in traditional rituals would, like, he's the one wearing A goofy mask or, like, throwing crap at the people who are being all sacred in the ritual. There's definitely a streak of that in me. Like, this is. This amount of holiness is not helpful.

Lindsey: 00:34:00

Right.

Abram: 00:34:01

Could I push into that a little bit and ask what. What is it about playing that role meets a need for you? What does that do for you to be that way?

Ben Campbell: 00:34:12

Yeah, well, I think it introduces a lot of needed lightness, because as partially as a six, like, there's this automatic burden of just feeling the weight of the world and the weight of responsibilities and kind of seeing responsibilities as bigger and heavier than they actually are. So having this. That lightness really helps lighten that load.

And I think it also helps me engage with the world, which can sometimes feel overwhelming in the amount of suffering that's going on.

And with the news media and all the focus on things that aren't good, being able to see what's ridiculous and laugh at it or what's fun and engage with it is really helpful just for being a human in this world.

Lindsey: 00:35:03

So when you encounter other Sixes in your secret Sixes meeting, we know you're having them. Are you finding that other Sixes are like, well, yeah, I. I feel this way too. Or do you feel like this is something that's kind of uniquely yours?

Ben Campbell: 00:35:21

No, I think to an extent, Sixes have this in common.

I believe there are a lot of six comedians, and a lot of Sixes I know tend to be serious most of the time, but they're also really funny in the right moments. So I can credit my type for that.

Abram: 00:35:41

Well, I wanted to just. To me, this leads into another one of the words you shared about yourself.

Thoughtful in that, you know, I can take that word in at least two different directions. You know, thoughtful as in, wow, that guy was really thinking of me, and I really appreciate that he's really thoughtful.

Or your mind is full of thoughts, and so you're. You know, you're rather stuck in that space, in that head space. So I'm curious, like, and maybe you were thinking something different entirely.

But say more about what you mean by thoughtful, because I could also hear it as trickster. Thoughtful in that I am trying to help people wake up a little bit.

Ben Campbell: 00:36:21

What I had in mind is definitely those first two at the same time. I think that's. I remember thinking about that in high school.

We had some exercise about that, and that word really landed in both of those ways, because my head is often full of thoughts, and I also find it pretty difficult not to be thoughtful toward Others or to be spending time thinking about that. At least that's where I have a strong two component in my quote chart. You could say, yeah.

Abram: 00:36:55

Do you find it helpful being thoughtful for others to help you get out of your full of thought mind?

Ben Campbell: 00:37:04

What I find helpful is to remember that it's not about me. So in terms of remembering what I'm serving, that's really helpful.

Creek: 00:37:20

How would you define sincere? Because I think it does a lot of different things for different people. So how do you see sincere?

Ben Campbell: 00:37:31

Yeah, I know that one's a little tricky because it kind of feels like humble and that if I'm proud of being humble, am I really humble?

But I think it's just that I have this real wish to, especially when it comes to my work, to use the enneagram for what it's for and to not diminish it and to be as much of a contributing positive force to human evolution and to helping others as I can. And it's one thing I've heard said about me that I think it comes through when I'm attending a training or leading a training, that there's just.

There's a wish to be there. There's a wish to understand what this thing is really about.

There's a wish to not cheapen it or just take advantage of it or rearrange it for my own purposes without due consideration. Yeah. Say all those things.

Abram: 00:38:37

I wanted to ask about the. The. The following two words. Those two seemed to be, I don't know if I would say apprehensive, but a little maybe newer for you to have embraced.

And I wanted to ask if there was.

Ben Campbell: 00:38:51

How.

Abram: 00:38:52

What's been the. Some of. Some of the work that I do includes allowing your self concept to be.

Some of the narratives around your self concept that are more limiting to be questioned by in a safe way within a group. And so I'm curious how maybe those two words are newer for you and where they came from and how you've kind of taken them on.

Ben Campbell: 00:39:13

Yeah. So we're talking about grounded and brave.

Abram: 00:39:15

Yeah.

Ben Campbell: 00:39:16

Yeah.

Abram: 00:39:16

Yep.

Ben Campbell: 00:39:17

Grounded is something that people keep telling me that I am. And there's this if so I know part of the goal here is to kind of talk about what's typical of Sixes.

And we have a big aversion to narcissism and to claiming good things for ourselves.

And the idea that six's core pattern is kind of based in kind of not being grounded and being anxious and flighty and second guessing to claim a word like grounded feels Like I'm saying to the world, I've done a lot of work, and I am developed.

And there's this narcissist alarm that's like, you're not allowed to claim that, but I think it kind of ties into the brave, which is in order to really deliver my gifts in the world, I have to be who I am, and I can't hide that either. So time to claim what I've got. So I think that's where both of those come from. Brave is Brave is coming online this year as I'm one of.

One of the archetypes I'm learning to embrace for myself is speaker to occupy that to say what I feel needs to be said. And in order to reach people, there has to be an authenticity, and there has to be courage and there has to be vulnerability.

So I think it's important to be brave. And it's edgy. Edgy for me to acknowledge that here. I've never actually claimed that before today, so maybe that's why it moved Lindsay earlier.

But it's important. So there it is.

Lindsey: 00:40:58

I love that it feels important. I feel that. Yeah, really beautiful.

Creek: 00:41:03

The thing. The thing with grounded, for me, I think I get the hesitation, and I think, I mean, different people mean different things when they say it, right?

But to me, I been thinking about it more recently as, like, the ability to have traction. Grounded is not so much like, I'm a tree connected to the land. It's like, no, I'm a. I mean.

I mean, I'm a moving thing, a process, a verb that can gain traction and gain momentum and speed without being chaotic. And that's to see it more as a process than a. This is the state of beingness and now ness.

And that's limiting and egotistical in some way of, like, I don't need to move anymore. I'm exactly how I should be.

Ben Campbell: 00:42:07

I like that.

Lindsey: 00:42:08

Ooh, I love that metaphor. It also speaks to, like, adaptability, Right?

Because if you're moving in a grounded way, you're encountering different terrain, which is going to require you to adapt. So I love that.

Creek: 00:42:24

All right, so, Ben, just a couple more questions here. What's one caution or advice that you would give to someone?

A lesson you've learned the hard way, a lesson that your sixness has a specific relationship with. You're like, do this thing, and your perspective is going to shift.

Ben Campbell: 00:42:48

So this is advice for sixes.

Creek: 00:42:50

For sixes. For anyone. Just like, what. What can anyone do? A lesson that you've learned that you Think is just really important.

Ben Campbell: 00:42:59

Finding the right mentors makes a huge difference. So in my case, especially.

Abram: 00:43:09

People who.

Ben Campbell: 00:43:11

Will mirror my strength and confidence and not indulge the doubt and not just answer my questions. For me, one of my mentors, he will say something like, I don't know. I don't know. And he always says he's just very calm. He's in his 70s.

What do you know? I'm like, damn it. Now I guess I have to figure that out. But with that mirroring, it always comes up.

So, yeah, he doesn't, like, play the game that my ego wants to play.

Creek: 00:43:47

I love that.

Ben Campbell: 00:43:48

Doesn't buy that I don't know what I need to know. And I would say having those guides, discernment about those guides has been the single biggest thing in my journey.

Lindsey: 00:43:59

What's a habit that you have developed that's changed how you approach. Approach your life?

Ben Campbell: 00:44:04

Every morning, even before I meditate, usually I go outside and I greet the cedar tree that sits next to my driveway out loud, and I say a little prayer that just acknowledges that I wish that my work today unfolds according to the higher good for that tree and for the rest of life. Some days I forget to do it, but when I remember to do, just lets the whole ego project go. Like, then the rest of the work I do that day is not.

Like I said earlier, it's not about me. I'm in it, but it's not about me. And so that takes a lot of pressure off, and I can just show up. I did it before this call.

Abram: 00:44:55

I love that. Feels like a really beautiful ritual.

Ben Campbell: 00:44:58

Yeah. And it's short. And you can do it with a house plant. You don't have to live in nature to do it. You could do it with the sky.

Abram: 00:45:06

Well, Ben, I just want to say thank you for spending some time with us today. We really appreciate your voice and this conversation especially. I'm just personally grateful for you sharing some of your heart with us.

You know, as a.

As a kid, you know, even asking that question, will I ever grow out of feeling different other people and then just naming how you found some comfort in being in similar company. I just. I think anytime someone's willing to publicly talk about some of the stuff, I think it's a continuation.

Allows for other people to get to feel that as well. Oh, that guy went through that, too. Thank you for. For just naming that. I really appreciate it, man. And also proclaiming your bravery publicly.

Ben Campbell: 00:45:50

Yeah.

Abram: 00:45:51

It's a brave thing to do. So, man, I just. I really did experience all those. Those words that you named thoughtful, sincere, a little mischievous and grounded and brave.

So just wanted to thank you for coming on, man, and sharing with us. Wanted to also then just ask you at the end here, how can our listeners. How can folks find you?

Ben Campbell: 00:46:10

I have1website. It's1wild enneagram.com and my email is ben wild enneagram.com. so as long as you can spell enneagram, you should be able to find it.

Creek: 00:46:23

Awesome. Thanks, Ben. Really, really, really appreciate it.

Ben Campbell: 00:46:26

Yeah, thank you.

Lindsey: 00:46:27

I loved it.

Ben Campbell: 00:46:28

Thank you. This is great.

Maria Jose: 00:46:33

Type.

Ben Campbell: 00:46:34

Talk movie. Talk about the type.

Abram: 00:46:37

Well, we.

Lindsey: 00:46:38

We.

Abram: 00:46:38

We. We went and did that thing. We've. We've all.

We came to keep doing that we've done now for how many times that, you know, we got to this place again and here we are. So what do we do now?

Creek: 00:46:55

It's. It's somehow getting funnier.

Abram: 00:47:00

I hope we're not the only ones that think that.

Creek: 00:47:02

Well, yeah, well, that's fine. They're not recording the podcast. We are.

Lindsey: 00:47:06

Yeah, we're doing this for us.

Creek: 00:47:08

Yeah. Oh, man. Let's jump into the schools. What did you guys notice? Similarities, differences, things you resonated with which you did not.

Lindsey: 00:47:21

I was really fascinated listening to Terri, especially because she does identify as Six. So I always think it's interesting to hear people talk about their own style.

I think they tend to use harsher language and sometimes just be harder on themselves when they're talking about their own type. And one thing that she said was, you know, she's talking about sort of this anxiety and future forecasting.

And she just said, I wouldn't wish it on anybody. I wouldn't wish it on anybody. And it gave me a glimpse into what it's like for her to be her.

You know, it sounds like there are times it's very, very frustrating to feel like you have to find a place for all of these things that you're worried about or wondering about or trying to make a plan for. Just. I sensed that she wished for some. Some release from that at times, like to get a break from it. You know, I wonder if.

I wonder if all Sixes feel that way.

Creek: 00:48:32

I think on the other side of the coin, and I've noticed this with all of our type episodes, is if someone has the type and is talking about the type, they. They have language trending towards, I guess, generalities, because it's like, it's. This is how. This is how I. This is the most logical thing.

This is how I am.

That's how that's therefore how other people are or how other Sixes are, because it's just so, so close to how they see the world that it's hard to see that anyone else could approach it any differently.

Abram: 00:49:13

Yeah, I found it interesting just Terry's language around how Sixes have kind of a external reference point to know safety. And that reference. The external reference point is how they feel safe on the inside. Right. And then, you know, she.

She did the kind of classic clarification of the two versions of 6, which I, you know, I think has been contested a bit, you know, because it kind of maybe extends just a person as a type a little bit too far, I think, sometimes. But, you know, because there's.

Some people say there's two kinds of Sixes and some people say there's, you know, a spectrum of how Sixness can show up in a person throughout a day or a life or whatever, you know, so there's the phobic and the counterphobic, which the. I did appreciate just how she described that of like the outside reference point is used differently, basically.

The phobic is to know safety, whereas the counterphobic is to challenge that external to no safety. They're both trying to get some level of security on the inside, but how they manage the external reference point is done differently.

So I just found that kind of language insightful and helpful and I could.

Creek: 00:50:33

See that happening in all the types to a certain degree of. Yeah. Internal and external reference point and how do we relate to those and what do we do about. That is going to be a very just general human thing.

And then we do it in the.

Abram: 00:50:51

Style of our type, for sure. Yeah. I mean, I think it's. With the Institute, even one of the. One of their books, one of the reason Hudson books, they.

I think they address this idea of how every type has a phobic and counterphobic expression. And I think it was. It was the idea of like going along with or going against your kind of primary emotion. So you might get a.

You might get a nine that's just going, you know, kind of avoiding the anger, or you might get a nine that's going against the anger. And that'll show up.

It'll just show different expressions of kind of how anger gets managed, I think, or how fear gets managed or how, you know, distress or shame gets managed. It's just a, you know, it's one. Another school of thought, I guess, alongside the idea that only Sixes have two versions of themselves.

Lindsey: 00:51:50

One thing that I don't understand is can you, if you're a counterphobic six, can you still like, essentially for sixes, are there six subtypes? Because in those schools of thought, like how does that, how does that work in those models?

Can you be sexual social, self preserving, counterphobic and sexual social?

Abram: 00:52:12

I think that depends on the teacher you talk to because I think sometimes people, you know, literalize, like there are literally two kinds of sixes or just that sixness, the, the way you manage six can show up differently in the same person depending on which strategies worked best for you socially, you know.

Lindsey: 00:52:35

Yeah, that's an area I don't know enough about, that I'm still wondering about, but I know that ATA does not.

Abram: 00:52:41

Yeah, I've never heard it that way. Somebody actually say there are that many different kinds of sixes, then it's yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Creek: 00:52:51

I think my understanding is it's like oftentimes the counterphobic six is just equated to the sexual six and that, yeah, all sixes can have that. But there are, there are more propensities for a sexual six to do the quote, counterphobic thing.

Abram: 00:53:11

Yeah. And that feels a little more accurate to how it might show up. Fear might show up in a human being within different, you know.

Creek: 00:53:20

Yeah, where.

Abram: 00:53:21

Spectrum. Yeah.

Creek: 00:53:22

Where ATA wouldn't necessarily use the whole phobic counterphobic.

It's like they're all striving to feel secure and they're going to try to maintain that sense of security through different means, whether that's through transmitting or navigating or preserving. And that's going to look different ways depending on your values, the threat level, the context, all those sort of things.

So all sixes can be, I've heard it said, like at your throat or at your feet kind of thing.

Abram: 00:53:55

Either way, I think it's valuable to understand the managing of sixness from the, the idea that your reference point is used differently. The way that Terry was talking about it, you either use it to no safety or you use it to bring it down to no safety.

Creek: 00:54:17

And I think obviously a big difference was how each of those schools talked about sixes and loyalty, where ATA is just like, you know, people can be loyal or not loyal. And loyalty being more of a second order thing where sixes can be very loyal, but they can also be very duplicitous.

And like whatever is serving my needs of feeling secure, that's where I'm gonna go regardless of, you know, if I promised myself to this person or not. I think, I think sixes can feel very loyal, but so can A bunch of other people.

Abram: 00:54:55

Yeah. But I think it's a qualifying factor. But it can't be the only factor that qualifies you as a Six.

Creek: 00:55:02

Right. It's a. It's a strong data point towards something they'll.

They'll probably go through a lot because people that they have trusted, that they do believe in on some level, that gives them that sense of security, giving that up is a big deal. So I can. Loyalty can be an outflow of that. But I. Yeah, I just. I would hesitate putting that singular label onto it, personally.

Abram: 00:55:26

Yeah. I am a very loyal person, and I always have been. I mean, you. I can. Depending on how you understand that word.

I mean, I can drop in with somebody that I haven't seen for 10 years, and I'll. They will get the vibe from me that I'm still quite connected. And, you know, they can put confidence in me because I am.

They can trust me, you know, but that's just. That's just me. That doesn't mean I'm a six. Yeah.

Lindsey: 00:55:53

Yeah. I think that's a great question. Is, what do you mean by loyal? Does it mean. And it could look different based on instinctual bias, too, I think.

Does it mean I'm never talking about you behind your back? Because I'm loyal? Does it mean I'm gonna show up for you on your doorstep when you're sick? Because I'm loyal. This is what friends do for each other.

They take care of each other. You know, like, what is. What does that mean? I think that's a really good.

That could go on for a long time, but I think that that's a good clarification to make when we use that word, Because Sixes would probably all answer that differently.

Creek: 00:56:35

Mm. And it's like, at what point. Point is loyalty no longer allowing you to feel secure?

When it's actually starting to harm you and harm those around you, then it's. Then it's going against the motivation of being loyal.

So either you have to shut out the ways in which you're continuing to serve, this thing is harming you or harming others and just confirmation your bias into believing that. That you're in the right place. I think that's something Terry said of, like, I am in line with an institution or this person or something like that.

That is. That is a feature of Sixness and exclusion, excluding different pieces of data in order to feel that way.

So it doesn't mean that they are always smartly aligned. It just means they will find ways to be aligned.

Lindsey: 00:57:33

I just, I've been wondering a lot about this connection for sixes to quote, unquote, institutions, because as I've observed sixes I think that I see a range of. There's like a spectrum of how that relationship works. Right.

So I see some sixes who will really find themselves entrenched in the organization or in an institution and even to the point of being abused by that institution because of their loyalty. I also see some sixes derive, or I guess I should say achieve feeling secure by.

I am on the outside of the institution and I know exactly how I've thought through and I've done my research and I know how to keep the institution or the powers that be from taking advantage of me. And so I see both in sixes and I just find that really interesting.

It's when we talk about loyalty to people or institutions, like we said in the definitions, that's one thing that's really peculiar to me is how different that relationship to institutions can look.

Creek: 00:58:48

Yeah. And I think, I mean, this is where mistyping can come in with ones.

I see sixes and ones both moralizing the things that they are that they feel threaten their sense of security. Maybe not all of them. Right. But there's a who's in and who's out is the only way that I'm going to know I'm going to feel secure.

So when I moralize, that gives me a very black and white way of demonizing one side and angelicai I don't know what's the opposite of demonization. Angelicifying, I don't know the other side. I see that.

I see that happening and I think this is where like pessimism comes in with a lot of sixes that I, that I interact with is they are constantly questioning and doubting and the whole skeptic thing. So the original, like it used to be a term for a philosophical school of thought of in some ways more like.

More akin to like agnostic agnosticism now, where it's like the idea that you can't know anything really, you can't know anything. Where now it's more just like comparing pessimism to skepticism.

Skepticism can be more on the line of being curious, being not just swallowing it whole without any sort of critically thinking about it.

Where pessimism is just more on the side of negative because if I keep things at bay and I never trust anything, then I'll never be hurt or I'll never feel unsafe because everything is unsafe. I never have to trust anything because everything is unsafe.

I don't know if I'm actually making a great distinction there, but I do see when six is moved from pessimism to skepticism, that's when they start to shine and it becomes a useful strategy.

Abram: 01:01:05

Yeah, I hear where you're going with that. And I think there's probably a different affect to how that is showing up in that person too.

But I think it can tend to still be difficult for some people who maybe just want to move forward without critically thinking about things. You know, if that's all you're. You tend to get from that same person. Right. Just Terry was. It can be perceived, you know, from other people.

As, you know, I'm only ever getting the negative side of things. Right. You're not showing me the possibility here, but it's. It's just a. It's a one way to reframe it is that it's.

You're helping me move forward by thinking through, you know, what other potential things could come up. It doesn't mean that it's a negative view only or it's only showing me what could go wrong.

It's just helping me think more strategically about the future. Right. Yeah.

Lindsey: 01:02:11

And I think this is where a lot of Sixes get misunderstood.

Misunderstood, because now there will be some Sixes who I also find this interesting because they will self identify and say, I do feel like I'm a fearful person or I'm an anxious person. You will get that. But then I have other Sixes that I know who will say no.

I actually think that I'm a really brave person because I'm willing to look at things that other people are afraid to look at. I'm willing to think through things that really scare other people, and I'm willing to confront it directly and come up with a plan.

And that is really brave and courageous.

And I think that when Sixes engage that process, they feel confident, they feel ready for whatever's coming, and then that resolves that feeling of fear. It's when they haven't been allowed to or they haven't gone through the process of that. That's when the fear kicks in.

But once they actually go through thinking it through, they actually feel very equipped and confident. And so I just think that I want to be careful when we talk about Sixes, because Sixes feel fear just the way that everybody else feels fear.

And there's also that. And I see that as very 4ish too, like the willingness to look at things that other people are not necessarily willing to look at and talk about.

It and make sure everybody else is looking at it.

Abram: 01:03:41

And.

Lindsey: 01:03:42

And I just want to honor that in sixes.

Creek: 01:03:44

Yeah, yeah, for sure.

I think the 8, 6 and 4, there can be potential mistypings because of that sort of intensity towards intensity in a direction to understand what's real about life. And I mean, my most intense conversations are often with those people. And it's fun to kind of be able to bring out just unfiltered intensity with.

With friends like that.

Lindsey: 01:04:12

Yeah, right.

Abram: 01:04:14

And it's probably why those folks can tend to have a bit more of a capacity to show up in the reality of those situations when they do hit after they've already been thinking about them and allowing themselves to go there.

Ben Campbell: 01:04:25

Right, right.

Abram: 01:04:25

I mean, I think it was Michael that talked about under pressure, they're ready sixes. Right. They're more prepared because they've already been future forecasting about the things that could happen that maybe now actually are.

It's just, you know, we're talking about the same thing that happens in how everyone manages their type. Well, or not. Right. It's overdoing that skill set, that, that gift that whatever you want to call it.

Have I gone too far with threat forecasting that now I'm, you know, hanging out in anxiety and I can't do anything but that. Right.

And you can do that the same way for, for Nines where I'm, you know, I am striving to bring in some level of acceptance and calm here, but to the point that I am now, you know, forgetting what's the reality that needs to be talked about right now because it's actually avoidance of something difficult. So it's. This shows up in all the types. Right. This is just the sixth version of that.

Creek: 01:05:22

And I mean, ATA talked about like this sense of duty.

And I see, I see Six is kind of vacillating and having a conflictual back and forth relationship with their sense of duty because like working together, it's a more secure way of doing things. And also this intense desire for freedom because I don't want to be controlled either. I don't want to be controlled.

But I also know showing up consistently is how we create security. So this sort of really difficult. And it's a human thing too. Like Kierkegaard says, anxiety is the dizziness of freedom. And so this. Yeah.

How do we both let ourselves lean into roles in which we have less decision, we have less ability to make decisions for the good of those around us. And for myself. And when can I just make my own decisions? Regardless of how it affects others. And that's a difficult thing to wrestle with constantly.

Abram: 01:06:30

Yeah. I think this moves well into as well.

I did really appreciate how the narrative was talking about the connection and the institute as well, but just this connection between fear and courage.

But the way that the narrative was talking about it was a move to finding your own interior authority rather than, you know, only finding security through other people's authority. Right. I think where I was, what I was thinking about this was just. It's very easy. I think certain types can be misunderstood or looked down upon.

Right. And I think sometimes Sixness can be about just simply fear and how. Yeah.

And I think that's really sad because I have a line to six, and I can recognize how sometimes that shows up because I know what it's like to live with deep anxiety and I know what it's like to live with. I've avoided something for so long, and now it's here and I have to face this. And actually, after having, you know, it's a.

It's a mantra in my home that we do hard things and we support each other in that. Then I think one of the things we Also a lesson you can learn from the quality of six is you can act in the face of fear.

And that is such a brave thing. And I think there's something that we.

One of the lessons that everybody can learn from just Sixnesses is braveness is not about, you know, denying that I'm afraid of something or that something could happen if I move forward, but I'm going to do it anyway. And just that. That connection between courage and fear. And I think people that are.

That do the six thing can just show up in a really unique way with that and teach us some beautiful things.

Lindsey: 01:08:25

Yeah. I'm thinking about when Ben was referencing himself as the trickster and kind of mischievous.

I think that there's a really beautiful way that Sixes can enjoy this aspect of their personality of wanting answers and seeking answers and striving to feel secure. And I think about. My best friend is a six, and she.

She recently bought one of those, you know, those ionizing things that go in the water and then you put your feet in and it's supposed to detox your body and stuff. And of course, she checked her budget first to make. She's a preserving sick.

So she had to make sure that she could afford the hundred dollars for this device and was delighted that she had this in her budget so that she could buy this thing and then do her own experiments. At home with this device to see if, like, there's anything to these claims. So she goes through these series and of course, she's like, Marco Polo.

Ing me, and she's keeping me up to date with, like, her latest findings and stuff. And at the end of it, she was like, this is bull crap. This is like, this doesn't work. You know?

And she was like, I spent $100 on this device, but now I know that I'm not. I don't need to, like, go to. If it works, great, I can do this at home for $100.

But now I definitely can tell my friends not to go waste their money at these expensive spas on this thing, you know, and so there's this side of it that's like, you're not going to trick me. You're not going to pull one over on me.

And I feel really proud of myself when I have proven that, you know, and then when I can help others not be taken advantage of either and not be fooled or duped, I think that's like that mischievous trickster kind of, you know, we're sticking it to the man. Come on, guys.

Abram: 01:10:23

Like, yeah.

Lindsey: 01:10:24

It's an energy I enjoy.

Abram: 01:10:26

I love that. And along with that, Ben was talking about how the world needs mischief.

Lindsey: 01:10:32

Yeah.

Abram: 01:10:33

And how. And comedic relief, even. Because if sickness is a person who's maybe more often managing fear or the experiences that come from. From that, you.

You need to be able to have skills to work with that, you know, to lighten the heavy load of responsibility and mischief and comedic relief are. Are really good ways of doing that. And. And maybe there's a. There's a reason that there's a tendency for Sixes to be more in that area. So. Yeah.

Creek: 01:11:04

Yeah. And I. I do. I mean, I resonate with the sort of devil's advocate thing. I mean, the trickster, the whole thing. Like, I. I get that. And it is.

We do it, but we do it for different reasons. And I. But I do think, like, I've talked about. I think I talked about this in the four episode too, of.

It's exhausting because, like, how quickly you can undermine the thought you just had. If you're just con. If you're constantly critiquing and undermining your thoughts so you can get to what's true and what you can trust.

You're seeking certainty in those things.

It's very destabilizing if you're constantly looking for certainty and of course you're not going to find it or you find something close to it and you guard it such that you will not allow new information in to change it. And I think that's a thing I see with a lot of sixes is kind of a tightly clinging on to something, something that makes sense.

And I don't want to let go of this because I finally found something that made sense. And I think the more adaptive. The more. Yeah, the more adaptive way of feeling secure is to like.

Yeah, of course, like if something makes sense to you and is working for you, of course, like, lean into that, do that. But don't close this, don't close the system off.

Because the more adaptive, secure thing you can do is maintain openness to new data, even inconvenient truths that are going to help you adapt to reality and circumstances that arise better. So I think that's a really, really difficult place. Sixes I know, don't handle ambiguity well. They'll jump from side to side.

But holding both is really difficult. I think kind of back to the sort of the vacillation between pessimism and skepticism and the courage and the fear and what was the other thing?

Abram: 01:13:15

Finding security in groups and you know, kind of groupthink, devotedness.

Creek: 01:13:19

Yeah.

I think there can be a propensity of wanting to close that discomfort of ambiguity too fast and seeing the worst case scenario, projecting the worst case scenario, and therefore some level of propensity to fall into conspiracy theories. Because yeah, our brains are wired to see the thing to. There's this one point that disproves all this other confirming evidence.

Then what if all that confirming evidence is wrong? And so it's just the idea that they could be wrong or that the world is a dangerous place. Yeah.

To fall into conspiracy theories is something that would be a logical step. Of course, everyone can do that.

Lindsey: 01:14:10

How does that contribute to striving to feel secure, though? Because conspiracy theories can be destabilizing and feel like the opposite of security.

Creek: 01:14:21

But if I know about it and if I'm the one that is in the know that there is danger out there, then I will be. I'll feel more secure.

Abram: 01:14:31

Yeah. And you know, and it's, I think also to land on anything secure brings up a level of insecurity as well.

Because there's a tendency for, you know, Terry talked about just this propensity for self doubt on my own. It's pretty hard to know anything too securely or too certainly.

And so it's a projecting of my certainty through other people that I can know that really well. And I think there's a There's a connection there between how threes and nines do this as well.

Like, I know my significance through the people I surround myself with. I think threes know their value in a lot of ways by who they surround themselves with. Because there's a connection here I think about on my own.

It's hard to know this, this thing that I'm looking for, this certainty. Yeah. So I think sometimes even just where that can come from is at least twofold, and there's probably more.

But, you know, I'm going along with the party that believes in this direction, and that's how I know security. Or I'm doubting myself so much that I'm. That I none of this could be real.

Creek: 01:15:50

So let's talk about some mistyping and I guess I'll just say in the spirit of, you know, devil's advocate skepticism. I mean, I'm not sure we've had a human on. And anyone who's talked to me, like, I always have some doubt about someone's type.

And I think that's, there's, Mario has said multiple times, like, I don't have any reason to believe you. I don't have any reason to not believe you necessarily.

And I think that's what we're trying to highlight in these human interviews is like, you know, any one of these people could be typed correctly or not. But it's also, there are anomalies of being human culture and all the other overlays that we can't.

And until you dive in on these, like, oh, that's peculiar. That's not what I normally think of when I think of this number. Like, it's a data point and we just hold that loosely and we see where that goes.

And if you have a relationship with this person, you can like, press into it. And I think different types have more propensities to have mistypes because of the oversimplification and the stereotyping.

And I think sixes are one of those where it's just like, if you have anxiety or if you are a loyal person or if you are ever scared, then you are a six. And I think, yeah, that just. Or if you have any doubts about your type, then you're probably a six. And those are data points, of course.

But I do think it's just important to mention that, you know, human contextualizes the type, blah, blah, blah. So I, for mistyping, like, I, I, I was trying to write down all the different ones.

I'm like, there's just all, like a lot of them A lot of the types I think can be misconstrued. I was struggling to. Struggling to find one that I haven't seen in some form or another. So like I'll just, I don't know, just go around the circle.

So like the, the one, the. The black and white thinking the two like this sort of like caring for other people. That could be equated with sixness sometimes.

And the three like sixes are very often very ambitious. I've seen them being very ambitious people. Again, depending on subtype fours, you got that sort of like what is real and intention.

Intense emotionality, fives. Like if people stereotype to five. Right. It's just very. I gotta know all this data. I'm like collecting all these sort of things.

I read a lot, I do all these sort of things. Then the seven like that sort of. There is a high energy to them in a lot of ways. Curiosity, curiosity. Eight again that.

What is real intense emotionality, aggressiveness. And nines, I mean just push back. Yeah, yeah. Nines. Trying to see all the sides constantly. So it's just like that this.

It's just becomes really difficult if it's like. Yeah, could be any like one characteristic, could be any of the types. And I'm sure we could do that with all the types.

But I think six especially, I've just seen it when it is stereotyped. When all the types are stereotyped, they can become all kind of. You can fit them into a six box.

Abram: 01:19:09

Yeah. And I do think based on that, that's one reason why people have said, you know, if you don't, if you can't figure out your type, you're a six.

Creek: 01:19:17

Yeah. Which I don't feel like is great advice.

Abram: 01:19:21

I don't either. But I, But I understand why.

Creek: 01:19:25

Yeah.

And then we're not even talking about like your instinct and sexual bias because those, those things like especially preserving or self preservation can have that sort of protective threat forecasting.

Abram: 01:19:42

Right. Worrying about your resources, make sure you're secure and stability. Yeah, yeah.

Creek: 01:19:51

I know. I just kind of took all the mistypings.

Lindsey: 01:19:52

But you really did.

Creek: 01:19:54

I did.

Lindsey: 01:19:55

You really did.

Abram: 01:19:57

It's very efficient.

Lindsey: 01:19:58

I had some.

Creek: 01:19:59

Yeah. What are the other reasons that you guys found for the different types?

Lindsey: 01:20:06

Well, specifically like transmitting 6 and 8, there's one particular person that I've mulled that over. Are they an 8? Are they transmitting 6? It's like really, really, really hard for. There's an aggression there that is hard to parse out.

Creek: 01:20:24

Yeah. I think for that one. Yeah. It Is. It's difficult for sure, but there's a.

There's a certainty or confidence in eights, where that sort of transmitting six. It's like. It's a little bit more death gripping the wheel where I don't. I don't see eights as like death gripping the wheel in those circumstances.

It's just kind of. It's still aggressive, it's still hard charging. I was just like, this is where I'm going. Here we go. But that's still hard to parse out in a human.

Abram: 01:20:59

The one that comes to mind to me, for me, is just the one because of the responsibility quality that they both share. You know, like, the one is. Is. Is, you know, this is for reputation. This is for. Because I'm the one that, you know, isn't. Has integrity.

And so I'm going to be responsible. Whereas, you know, the Sixes is trying. Sixers are trying to be responsible as well, but for the sake of.

So they can continue to contribute to the collective, to be a part of it, to know their safety. Right. So I think they both share in this quality of responsibility to kind of reinforce or uphold their self concept. Yeah.

Creek: 01:21:51

All right, Abram, what do you got for quote today?

Abram: 01:21:56

This one's from Brene Brown. It says courage. It feels like it's a couple. Couple of different things that other people have said before, but just her version of it.

She says courage is not the absence of fear, but the willingness to move forward in its presence, trusting in the wisdom of your own resilience.

Creek: 01:22:18

All right, and what do you all have for practical tips? I think I'll just. I mean, I'll just steal Ben's. Like, one of his mentors said, like, but what do you know? I think that that was a. A lovely.

It's not really a practice as much as a mindset shift. Like, I just don't know this, and I don't know this. I need to figure out. Okay, but what do you know?

And what can you act on with what you know, knowing that you're not going to know everything. So what can you act on with what you know?

Lindsey: 01:22:53

Yeah, and I. I really like the way ATA approaches type in that it is counterproductive to just tell a person to stop doing the things that they're doing.

So first six is. Yes, think about what could go wrong. This is part of what helps you feel secure.

This is part of what your skill set could be, you know, and also think about what could go right. This can bring a balance and a joy that might be Lacking at times.

Abram: 01:23:33

What I will put forward is kind of what I was saying earlier about how all the types overdone become the gift becomes the weakness. And so for six, I think overthinking sometimes, trying to threat, focus, trying to make sense, trying to understand something. When do I stop?

How do I stop? Sometimes it's really difficult to do that. And so maybe having a framework that has some boundaries around it to help, you know, when.

And so I think of one that I've found helpful from Byron, Katie, I think you both probably heard it, but she's got those four questions. The first one is, is it true?

You know, is this thought you're having, is this thing you're thinking about, is this anything you're trying to make sense of? There's this fearful thing that could happen, is it true? Number two is can you absolutely know it's true? Three, how do you react?

What happens when you believe that thought? And the fourth one is who would you be without that thought?

Yeah, just kind of, I think a helpful four question framework to help put some boundaries around maybe thinking more productive, productively about something.

Creek: 01:24:45

I guess I'll add one more with just kind of take small steps, take small steps in do, do the work, do the research, whatever it is, but at some point trusting that you're going to be able to bounce back from whatever. And in doing that in small ways, don't try to tackle the biggest anxiety of your life. Find that small thing and do risk, risk, practice, risk.

The more that we become familiar with that feeling of risk. Actually, Lee Field sent me something the other day.

I think it was Lee of We think the opposite of anxiety is calm, but the opposite of anxiety is trust. And how can we cultivate and work with our brain to cultivate trust in ourselves, in our surroundings, in our friends and how we operate.

And you know, that's going to be research, of course, but that's also going to just be living into life and trusting that you're going to be able to respond appropriately. And if you don't guess what, you get to try again and you'll be okay.

Lindsey: 01:25:52

I sent that. It was Dr. Siggy.

Creek: 01:25:54

Oh yes. Okay, fine. I'll attribute the real send to you. Yeah, awesome. Thanks folks. Talk to you later. Thanks for listening to Fathoms in Enneagram podcast.

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Ben Campbell: 01:26:26

Sa.