Type 5: The Quest for Knowledge, Understanding, and Self-Sufficiency

Creek: 00:00:02

Welcome back to season five of Fathoms, an Enneagram podcast. Today we are talking about fives.

Abram: 00:00:10

I was thinking of the Sesame street songs that, like, introduce numbers and shapes and stuff. Like five.

Lindsey: 00:00:16

What else has a five?

Abram: 00:00:17

Yeah, I don't actually think of. I don't know what five.

Lindsey: 00:00:20

I'm sorry. There are five of us. Five days of trying to get out of Mexico. Five days.

Creek: 00:00:29

Right.

Lindsey: 00:00:29

So immigration.

Creek: 00:00:32

I was in Mexico for 10 days. It's a very navigating for thing. I met a guy, a Swiss guy in China when Seth and I were over there. Abram and I were over there.

Lindsey: 00:00:44

Sounds like the beginning of a joke.

Creek: 00:00:48

We hiked the Himalayas, all that other stuff. We became really close, then did a road trip through Switzerland into Italy with him. And then he got married.

And I went over and was the wedding singer of. Of the wedding. And. And then they moved to Queretaro, Mexico.

And one of our favorite bands, Hermanos Gutierrez, if you don't know them, you should check them out. They were playing in Queretaro. So I went down there for 10 days. It was. It was amazing. So much fun.

But on my way out, somehow I missed immigration or I didn't get the correct stamp. So I was sitting on the plane. They were about ready to close the door. Someone runs on to be like, you need to follow me.

Abram: 00:01:40

Whoa.

Creek: 00:01:41

Okay, so what went through your mind?

Lindsey: 00:01:45

First thing that went through your mind.

Creek: 00:01:47

I was like, somebody made a mistake and it wasn't me. They kept think.

They kept saying it was my mistake, but it's like, that shouldn't be a thing that is possible for me to get all the way onto a plane without proper documentation.

Lindsey: 00:02:09

It should be harder than that.

Creek: 00:02:10

Between my limited Spanish and their limited English, something wasn't communicated right, something wasn't checked right, all of those things. So anyways, yeah, so I had to miss my first flight.

And they said, you can either stay here overnight and get a flight to Miami, which is nowhere near Orlando, which is where I needed to be, or I could stay for another, like, three days in order to get a flight to Orlando. And they're like, those are your only options? I'm like, no, a navigator does not only have a couple options.

So anyways, there was a flight that was going to Dallas and I got. I have friends in Dallas. So flew to Dallas that night and then was able to hop on another flight to Orlando in the morning.

Anyways, I'm in Orlando now, and it was just such a wild ride. I'm recovering from being sick because of Having pushed my body so, so hard the past five days. So.

Abram: 00:03:13

But wait a minute.

Lindsey: 00:03:14

Five days of pushing your body hard?

Abram: 00:03:18

Did you get all the right paperwork or stamps or whatever figured out?

Creek: 00:03:21

Yeah, that was a long process of Google Translate. And under. It was. It was.

It was a long process because I had to go out of the airport, pick up my bag that had been pulled from the flight, then find immigration, work through Internet issues to get documentation to my phone and then go recheck my bag, then go to the next flight and. Yeah.

Abram: 00:03:47

Did they see you as a suspicious person or did they. Did you just.

Creek: 00:03:51

I don't.

Abram: 00:03:52

Things to legally get through.

Creek: 00:03:54

I don't think so. It wouldn't have really caused me any issues if I had gone, but they would have gotten a massive fine if I would have been able to exit.

Maybe if I was trying to get back into the Mex, into Mexico, that would have caused me some issue.

Lindsey: 00:04:07

But yeah, see, this is the problem. Trying to be so mysterious all the time.

Creek: 00:04:12

Yeah, there it is. Yeah, so that was.

Lindsey: 00:04:14

People are like, he needs to be checked out here. Something's not right here.

Creek: 00:04:21

Yeah. But regardless, I had a wonderful time in Queretaro. I would highly suggest you guys go there and you should all go to Kao Kao coffee shop.

It's incredibly delicious and good food and all of that. So anyways, this has nothing to do with type five other than I've had five stressful days. So.

Abram: 00:04:44

Which is spending time with a five. Just kidding.

Lindsey: 00:04:49

Just kidding. I don't feel like I really did Sesame street songs. I feel like I morphed into like musical theater there. But I tried.

I tried to bring it all together there for us.

Creek: 00:04:59

Let's define our terms. Lindsay, why don't you start it off?

Lindsey: 00:05:05

Type a category of people or things having common characteristics. A person or thing symbolizing or exemplifying the ideal or defining characteristics of something.

Abram: 00:05:18

Strategy, a plan of action or policy designed to achieve a major or overall aim pattern.

Creek: 00:05:27

A regular and intelligible form or sequence discernible in certain actions or situations. Model.

Lindsey: 00:05:34

Model.

Creek: 00:05:37

A simplified.

Abram: 00:05:41

System process. There's just calculations and predictions.

Lindsey: 00:05:47

I've been told that it's very dysregulating.

Abram: 00:05:50

For the listeners to hear just one.

Creek: 00:05:54

Of us, especially four fives. Let's keep it nice. And yeah, a simplified and provisional description of a system or process to assist calculations and predictions.

And now we're talking about fives. So we're going to talk about some of the terminology associated with fives that.

Lindsey: 00:06:10

You'Ll hear in this Episode detached, separate or disconnected. Aloof and objective. To leave or separate oneself.

Abram: 00:06:21

Investigator, a person who carries out a formal inquiry or investigation.

Creek: 00:06:29

Observer, a person who watches or notices something. So those are all the terminology that you will hear describing some of the terminology you'll hear describing Fives in this episode.

So just a few things to keep in mind. Again, we say this every episode. It's really hard to talk about type without also talking about the subtype. So.

And it's easy also to kind of lend yourself or start leaning towards stereotype because, you know, it's just. It's just hard, you know, describing human nature is hard for the beginners out there.

There might be some language that's thrown around that you are unclear about. Feel free to reach out to us. Check the show notes for links that you can learn more.

And then finally, as you listen to this, it's super easy to think, oh, yeah, that person. But instead, we'd love for you to just kind of think through, sure, maybe people that may have a type. But also, how does this experience.

How does this type describe some sort of my experience as well? So without further ado, here we go.

Maria Jose: 00:07:47

Striving to feel detached is one of the types that doesn't correlate that directly with other descriptions or other labels in the enneagram.

And what we mean by striving to feel detached is that they want to step back, create a buffer between themselves, between them and the world, and not feel kind of overwhelmed by it. And in order to do that, what they typically do is observe. They focus on observation and try to understand how the world works.

And by the world, I mean how my spouse works, my kids, my work, everything. They tend to have innovative ideas. They want to solve problems, gather data, all of it in an attempt to.

Abram: 00:08:43

To.

Maria Jose: 00:08:44

It's like almost modeling the world so that I do not have to engage emotionally or even physically. Sometimes so much that it overwhelms me. One of the things that people think about fives is that they're kind of less.

They feel less or less sensitive. And our understanding of fives is that they're even more sensitive. So much so that they need to detach. So that's how we see them now.

Under stress, they may hold onto their feelings and thoughts and prefer isolation to engagement, even. Typically, they will not be engaged in conversations with people or all the time. But who is. But under stress, it becomes even more acute.

The neglected strategy for fives is 0.8. Striving to feel powerful in their minds. Feeling powerful.

It's like using energy, engaging in the world in a way that they're resisting, in a way that it's strong, that they might lose control. And it almost. That energy doesn't fit into their bodies. It's like I will explode if I go there.

If I want to have control over things, if I do what I want or not even do what I want, if I assert my will here and have other people do what I say or tell them exactly how I think. So I try to repress that, and that comes across as hostility anyway.

Now the support strategy is striving to feel excited, but in the case of a five, it doesn't mean that they become a seven. It means that they have all these thoughts. It's like information blizzard.

So they get very, very excited with thoughts and talking about the topics that they feel comfortable with, where they are experts in the things that they have gathered more information that they have researched more, et cetera. So those are the two connecting points. Point eight, the neglected strategy, and point seven, the support strategy.

Creek: 00:11:19

One of the big distinctions between our approach to the Five and others is that people always assume that Fives are all about learning and intelligence and investigating and gathering information. It's not always the case case. It really is around an emotional detachment. And gathering information can be a way to do that.

And there are many Fives who are extremely intellectual, but it's more about the detachment than investigating or learning and all that.

Abram: 00:11:51

The narrative enneagram.

Terry: 00:11:55

We're going to move to the head center now, which is the center I occupy. And the head center is about focusing on ideas and prioritizing ideas and information and figuring things out and analyzing things.

And the needs of the head center. We're looking for certainty and security. Is this world. Can I count on it? How can I count on it?

The core emotions underneath this are fear and anxiety. And they show up differently in each of the three types which we'll talk about.

And the gifts are a sense of understanding and actually good analytical skills and thoughtfulness and a way to use imagination. So I'm going to start with type 5, the observer.

So basically here, the Fives feel like they need to protect themselves from a world that demands too much. They feel like they have limited resources to meet the needs of. Of the world.

We've come to understand that Fives often have a sensitive nervous system that takes things in.

So this strategy may partially have developed to protect that nervous system because it couldn't handle the stimulus from the environment that they're in.

So Fives, in a way have moved from their whole being to their heads and in a way, observing behind themselves, if you will, like observing rather than participating in this. Their gifts are a sense of thoughtfulness. Knowledgeable Fives can be knowledgeable about a lot of things.

I had a friend who unfortunately has passed, who was writing a dissertation on the Rastafari, and she researched and researched and researched and always wanted to know more. And finally her professor said, enough. Just the gift of wanting to know things thoroughly is often a characteristic of five.

And they can honor boundaries and they can keep confidences in relationships, but what can happen is they can get really detached. And it's as if they're watching life, not engaged in life. And some of the strategies they use to do that are compartmentalizing.

They have their work life in one compartment, their family life in another compartment. I made the mistake I remember years ago of was working with a company, and I mentioned a familial relationship in this company to this five.

And I saw the look of horror on his face and realized that I had crossed a boundary unknowingly. But a sense of wanting to keep things safe, separate, I think, to keep things manageable. Another strategy they use is previewing and reviewing.

Wanting to know what's coming ahead so they know how much energy they have, how much time it's going to take so that they can go do it and then go back and review it. Because it feels like if they're there, they're going to be drained again.

Another story I remember is a five, a young five, a five talking about their childhood, saying, I felt like with all these people, they were going to steal my soul. And I had to find a way to get away in my head so that I could protect myself.

So there's a disconnection in the Five from the life force energy and like a battery feeling like they're going to be drained because they only have a limited amount of energy and they really need to preserve and hold on to that energy. So their motivation is about avoiding potential intrusion.

And again, doing these compartmentalizing, previewing and reviewing, gathering knowledge, Just really wanting to be prepared. But more from an energetic sense than I would say the 6 is before going out into the world.

Another strength of the Five is their very calm in a crisis and because they're just steady.

So when the five kind of gets on the path, often they say, I feel like something's missing and they want to reconnect to their own felt sense of their heart, their own felt sense of their body.

These are scary to them in the beginning because it feels like it's going to drain all the energy, that if I really do this, I'm going to be depleted.

And they also come to sense as they engage this journey, that maybe actually they can receive from the outside that they're not just going to be drained, but that they can actually receive in this human condition here that we share.

And they can become more generous, they can become more connected to their own life force and more available and actually experience in the moment, the relationship, whatever's going on at work instead of watching it as an observer. Helen Talked about the 5 is the unenlightened Buddha.

To get enlightened, you need to come in and down and really connect with your experience so you can connect with yourself and with others.

Lindsey: 00:17:35

ENNEAGRAM INSTITUTE.

Gayle: 00:17:39

So moving into the head triad, we see type 5, 6 and 7. And personality type 5 we call the investigator. And this is the intense cerebral type.

These people are perceptive and innovative and often down the level, secretive and isolated.

We also call these people deep thinkers, sages, experts, brainiacs, genius geeks, head case, and sometimes, you know, absent minded professors and down the levels, you know, loners and nihilists. So the essential qualities for the Five are clarity and illumination and the superpower of the Five.

And every type has it, but for the Five, it's that they have a way. They have a kind of depth perception into what is here in the universe, in that they see things that the rest of us just miss.

Their ability to perceive deeply and narrowly and like a laser beam focused on things allows them to discriminate and to see connections, for instance, between things that the rest of us just overlook or just miss. And this is very exciting for Fives.

The most exciting thing for a Five is when that light bulb goes off and they have that eureka moment of suddenly seeing and discerning and understanding something about reality, something about the world, something about the universe, something about whatever field or topic they're into that no one had seen or perceived before. So they tend to work out at the edges of things.

They don't necessarily want to be tramping ground where everyone is already gone and picked apart everything that's worth looking at. They like to be on the edges, pushing the boundaries of what is known and discovering new things.

And they're set up for that because they have what it takes to do that. The basic fear is of having no ability to know what's real and true, to be like, lost in a kind of ignorance and senselessness.

So it's very important to them to always be accumulating more and more knowledge and understanding about things they really want to understand.

It's their basic desire really to understand and uncover the essence of things, Whatever it is that interests them to have those eureka moments for an average five, often they would rather be studying something.

They would rather be reading a book or learning about something online or pushing the boundaries of knowledge somehow, somewhere, in some way in the research lab, doing pure research.

And in general, the more they can be working with what interests them and the less they have to interact with people, the better because they tend to be overwhelmed by social responsibility and social interaction.

And they have just a certain amount of resources, personal resources, which includes their time, their energy, their attention that they have to give. And if they have to, you use that in social situations or cocktail parties or work meetings.

It really depletes them because they have a very limited supply of these resources. And they have to have alone time. They have to recharge.

So I always recommend for people who are in relationship with the five to not take it personally, but to really allow that person to have their alone time to have that time to recharge, Especially if you've been on them about we have to talk about this or I want to tell you how I feel about this. Fives don't necessarily want to hear what you feel about things, and they don't necessarily want to talk about what they feel about things.

But they're more than happy to tell you about what they know about something or what they've learned about something, and they're very generous in that way.

Lindsey: 00:22:05

Melissa, we are so excited to have you on the show today. This has been a dream of mine to introduce you to the seths for like a year now. So I'm absolutely elated that you all get to see and meet each other.

I just think it's going to be such a great conversation. So thank you for being here.

Melissa: 00:22:23

Thank you for having me. I'm excited to meet the seths and talk to you more.

Creek: 00:22:27

It's great to meet you. It's great to meet you.

Lindsey: 00:22:31

Yes. This has been long time coming. So just to get us started here, I have a little icebreaker question for you here at fathoms.

At the time of this recording, like 2/3 of us are having birthdays this month. So I have a birthday question for you. What is the fastest way that someone could ruin your birthday?

Abram: 00:22:53

Whoa.

Melissa: 00:22:54

Oh, a surprise party. Such a 5 answer. Like, do I want to be surprised and be the center of attention? No, thank you, ma' Am. Yeah. I prefer them to be small and chill.

If I planned a party and knew what was happening and I didn't have to be like, my wedding was the worst day ever because everybody was looking at me. So, like, yeah, the best way to ruin my birthday is to surprise me with too much attention.

But if it was, like, a party where I knew it was happening and everybody knew each other and got along, that would be fine.

Abram: 00:23:31

So, wait, was your wedding a surprise?

Melissa: 00:23:34

No, it wasn't a surprise, thankfully. But I was much younger then, and I didn't have as much, you know, didn't work enough on. On being more social.

So it's just a different version of Melissa.

Lindsey: 00:23:50

How about the marriage? Has the marriage been a surprise marriage?

Melissa: 00:23:54

Surprise every day? Yes. 100%. Yeah. 19 years of surprises.

Creek: 00:23:59

That's great. Yeah, that's great.

Lindsey: 00:24:03

That's awesome. Thank you for that honest answer.

Melissa: 00:24:05

You're welcome.

Abram: 00:24:07

I have one more rapid fire for you here.

So this might, I guess, be influenced by the context or the thing you're attending, but when, let's say when a group of people stand up for a standing ovation, are you usually one of the earlier people to stand up or the last one?

Melissa: 00:24:24

That's such a good question. I love it. I am in the middle. I am. Oh, this is happening. How much of this is actually happening?

Like, I gauge percentages, and if enough percentages are people, then I'm going to go with the crowd and not be one of the last ones. So I'm solidly in the middle, observing, and then following along with what seems appropriate.

Creek: 00:24:50

That's great.

Melissa: 00:24:51

That's a great question. I love that. What does that say about a person?

Creek: 00:24:58

Oh, we'll get into it.

Melissa: 00:25:00

Okay. My mind is already spinning.

Creek: 00:25:03

Okay, so I have one more question for you that is at rapid fire, if you could have a pet animal of any sort that would be kind to you, what would it be?

Melissa: 00:25:13

Oh, I'm a dachshund lady all the way. I've always had little wiener dogs, except then I have kids, and now I can't have a dachshund and kids. It's just, like, too much neediness.

Because dachshunds are, like, personal. They have personalities, and they're feisty, and they demand lots of training and attention.

And I adore them because they're so like their own little beings. But I also have two possibly assertive type kids and an assertive husband, and so that's enough for. For me. But I love when I see dachshunds out.

I'm an immediate pile of, like, mush. And I will ask to pet your. Your dachshund way too long.

Creek: 00:25:55

That's great. Yeah, that's great. All right, so we're going to get into a little bit more focused content here, but we kind of already.

We kind of already got into what type you are and. And kind of you're showing your cards a little bit with how you answered. So can you kind of.

Can you give us a brief story of how you found your type of. What was that experience like?

Melissa: 00:26:19

Sure. I think, like most Fives, I was skeptical of all things that puts anybody in a box.

And my husband got really into the Enneagram, and I was just like, okay, good for you. Not. Not. Not anything that I'm interested in. Like, he was like, no, this is real cool.

And then we were on vacation, and my kids were really little, so they were taking naps back then. And he left a book out on a table. So I was in a place that I didn't, you know, was not my normal state. I needed something to do. There was a book.

I read the book. I was like, oh, crap, this is. This is real. And I initially thought I was a four, and I was a four for about a year. And that was a great year.

I mean, we loved that year was really was. I started doing enneagram work, and it was easy. I was like, I know how to, like, regulate the waves of emotion. I'm so good at that.

Like, I'm so adaptive. I'm so adaptive. And, like, really, you know, I can, when I go to my stress, move to equanimity.

Creek: 00:27:33

Easy peasy.

Melissa: 00:27:34

I mean, I was really like, I'm a fly. Equanimity just fine. And then one day, I don't know, it was just this. I remember distinctly calling my husband and being like, look, let's be real.

Do you ever experience me as a 2? And he kind of hemmed and hawed, and I was like, no. Like, am I insanely generous to a fault when I'm stressed?

Do I merge with other people and, like, intuit their needs and over give? And he was like, no. And so then I immediately went back in and read the Five. And I was like, yeah, this is. I have a very strong four wing.

But the five was that gut punch. Oh, no. Kind of moment. That really nailed it for me. And then you start doing the Enneagram work, and it's not so easy peasy.

Then it's really getting into all your triggers and so survival patterns and all of that. But I was still hooked on it. It still described me in a way that nothing else ever had. And I loved that it was expansive and included movement.

And so it was really a modality that resonated.

Creek: 00:28:49

Interesting. Can you talk a little bit about what about the four caught you at first.

Melissa: 00:28:59

The thrift store kind of stereotyped because, like, it was like, oh, Forest shop at thrift stores because they like to express themselves through clothing. And if you know me well, you know I'm a thrift store chick, and I love same.

Terry: 00:29:16

Right.

Melissa: 00:29:17

High five.

Lindsey: 00:29:18

And.

Melissa: 00:29:19

And I love to. I don't have, like, one style. I like to just express myself through clothing. And I'm an artist, so I went to art school.

I'm classically trained artist, like, in the fine arts, and so was like, the artist and you're. And wanting to be unique and breaking norms kind of a thing. All of that really was like, oh, yeah.

And what I didn't know then was that I equated the fours waves of emotion.

I resonated with that, but I didn't understand that it was actually, for me, the delayed reaction of emotionality for a 5, where I feel emotions and put them aside unconsciously, and then they come out real big. It was like, oh, the real bigness. That's the four. But it wasn't. It was, oh, no, this is my. My backlog of emotionality that then bursts. Yeah.

That's why I thought it was a lot of the emotion stuff, which is odd. You would think a 5 wouldn't connect with emotionality, but that was a big piece of.

Creek: 00:30:27

I think that is a misnomer for sure, that fives don't have emotions.

Melissa: 00:30:31

Oh, we do.

Creek: 00:30:32

Very, very deep.

Melissa: 00:30:33

We're very emotional people.

Creek: 00:30:35

Absolutely, yes.

Lindsey: 00:30:37

Melissa, one of the things that really caught my attention about you and we met on social media. We didn't say this yet, but you can find Melissa on Instagram and TikTok. Now. Look at you.

Melissa: 00:30:49

I know. I have 80 whole followers on TikTok.

Abram: 00:30:53

I feel so special.

Melissa: 00:30:55

Yeah, yeah, it's fine.

Lindsey: 00:30:58

Enneagram paths on Instagram. Beautiful artwork, beautiful poetry. So many of your posts have just literally brought me to tears.

And so can you tell us a little about kind of how that came to be sharing your artwork, just what that journey's been like for you? Sure.

Melissa: 00:31:19

First. Thank you. That's so kind of you to say. I was on Twitter or whatever we call it now, First X.

Lindsey: 00:31:28

So we call it Twitter.

Melissa: 00:31:29

Yeah, I call it. I call it Twitter. So it was on Enneagram. Twitter. For way before Instagram, when that was kind of a thing.

And I started noticing that people were responding and there was a community there and I was starting my coaching business. And so it was a great way to just connect. And it was fun to be able to tweet people.

I mean, I got to meet Russ Hudson because of Twitter, because I tweeted him and he lived near me and I got to have coffee with him. It was just cool. It's a cool time.

Creek: 00:32:02

That's cool.

Melissa: 00:32:03

And then as Fives do, I observed that a shift was happening. And so I was like, okay, I should try out Instagram. And at the beginning, it was really bad graphics. You know, like, I.

Again, I have a degree in fine arts, but I also have a minor in, like, back when graphic design was like, beginning, when we had to draw things vector point by vector point, not now at all. So I had Photoshop and I would just Photoshop some things. And just over time, I kind of then discovered Canva, which is amazing.

And then things looked very canva y for a while and then I don't.

Terry: 00:32:52

I.

Melissa: 00:32:52

It wasn't really a conscious decision. It was like the flow of energy sort of pinged into my awareness of, oh, you have all of these illustrations. Why not connect them?

And then as I did that, I became more connected with what I was making, if that makes any sense. Meaning I was creating something deeper that connected to both what I was saying and the visual elements that is also connected to emotionality.

That for me is kind of a whole being kind of thing. And then people started responding well. And so I just. I went with it because I enjoy it, honestly. Did that answer your question?

Lindsey: 00:33:39

Yeah.

Melissa: 00:33:39

Okay.

Lindsey: 00:33:40

I'm also curious if you've encountered your type in a really obvious way as you've engaged the social media process.

Melissa: 00:33:47

I definitely see my type five showing up, I think, in the ability to observe changes in the algorithm and engagement and statistics. But I don't pay attention to it too much.

It's more of a, like the higher side of five that's sort of connected, but not needing to be super obsessive about it. I notice things and I adjust, but more on an intuitive level.

And I also, I think boundaries wise have learned to post and make things when I want to instead of watching reach go down. And then I have to, you know, I really just try to come from a more gut space of following my instincts.

And then sometimes I give myself permission to have fun and not take it so seriously and do something about Bridgerton or Ted Lasso. And I'm going to do something about selling Sunset next I think because it's hilarious and fun.

So I think the five is, I think all three the high side of seven where it's just like whatevs. And then the five that does watch things and cares deeply about being correct and accurate in what I'm saying.

And the boundaries thing, definitely with trolls I don't have a lot of space for it. If people disagree with me, it's absolutely fine. But if you're rude and mean, it's an immediate. It's like a.

It's usually I'll say something like hey, on this page we're respectful and kind and if they don't say sorry and adjust then something then we're blocked. If you're just disagreeing, I don't care if you're saying something mean about another type, I don't like that either.

And that does not get to day because I don't think we need to put each other down.

And you know, the trolls and the DMs I just kind of usually block, sometimes engage with and we have a good conversation and actually goes kind of well. So I think boundaried, I'm pretty boundaried. And then the eight following the gut.

Abram: 00:36:06

Can I ask a question real quick? Since we're on boundaries around.

I think that sometimes there's a thing with some, some of my friends that are fives where it's common that there's a, an equate. Equating with boundaries and detachment. Whereas I kind of see like boundaries are. Are the specific limits that you personally establish.

And detachment is, is like, you know, involves like emotionally distancing yourself.

Melissa: 00:36:38

Yes, I would agree.

Abram: 00:36:40

I'm curious if you could kind of speak to that for, for our listeners as a 5, the difference between that and maybe, maybe like in your journey how you started to recognize the difference and how you were practicing one. Because one I think comes maybe more natural for the five that the attachment. But the other one actually requires some practice.

Melissa: 00:36:58

So yes, you are correct. It's so funny because a friend whose partner is a five and they're a seven was texting me the other day and being like, why y' all like this?

And I was like, because you come at us, bro. Like, and then I was like. And then we snap. You know, like it's.

But what's really happening is we're withdrawn and so we don't really want to exert energy to vocalize boundaries that they're silent and non communicated and we know what they are. But we're not usually good at saying to others. Here is where the limit is until they cross it.

And then, you know, like, then we're spicy, then we're loud, then we're very forceful and it can be so abrupt that other people are like, what are you even talking about? So I think that is the work for definitely me and most fives to be more intentional about communicating boundaries respectfully and kindly.

Detachment is easier. It's the I would rather not deal with this. So I will remove all mental, emotional and bodily energy from this because I don't want to deal with it.

And that's. It's like our general state of like, nah. And we have to work to kind of say yes more and be more engaged with things.

Lindsey: 00:38:29

Melissa, can you tell us about the. As I'm sure you're aware, there are a lot of models of the Enneagram, a lot of different schools of thought.

Can you tell us about the one that you are either trained in or the one that you work with the most?

Melissa: 00:38:42

So I'm going to be really five in my answer and extremely neutral. My training was through the Madina School of Enneagram, which is an Israeli school that is accredited with International association of Coaching.

So there's IAC and ifc. Like International Federation. Right. Foundation or Federation one or the other.

Those are the two bigger like certifying boards of just life coaches and coaches in general. So my school is accredited through the iac, so I'm an IAC coach. But madness was Enneagram and life coaching and I didn't really want to do coaching.

This was back before there were all of these online options to get. Like I don't think the narrative. I know I looked into the Enneagram Institute because it was in New York, near where I lived in Connecticut.

But you had to go to them and I had little littles then and I just could not make that work because it was a five hour drive and I had to be there. You know, it just didn't work.

So it was like one of the places that I could find back then that was online and thankfully it was an extremely good Enneagram education. Since then I've done work with the narrative. I've done work with Leslie Hersher Hirshberger. Sorry, which I know you guys know her. We love Leslie.

Lindsey: 00:40:10

Yeah, I love Leslie.

Melissa: 00:40:12

She was my coach for a little while. I got to do one on one with her, which was amazing.

And I've gotten to do like I did a year long with Russ and Cheryl Richardson, Russ Hudson on subtypes. And I kind of love, and I love Beatrice Chestnut. Like you know, all the different schools of thought have such a different take.

And I love all of, I love all of them. I just think they're all valid and useful and I don't really subscribe to just one. I, I, I value them all. Yeah, I'm sorry I'm such a Five.

Lindsey: 00:40:53

No, I love that answer.

Melissa: 00:40:55

I love it.

Abram: 00:40:55

I feel very similar getting into the next section here. Diving really a little bit deeper into some aspects of maybe we could say your self concept.

I wanted to ask you, could you give us off the top of your head maybe five adjectives that you feel would best describe who you are?

Melissa: 00:41:18

Sensitive.

Lindsey: 00:41:21

Meaning.

Melissa: 00:41:24

Highly, maybe hyper attuned to surroundings and people but also having a very deep heart, a big heart that is extremely sensitive to other people and myself. I would say like forthright I think different than honest. I mean honesty is like huge for me but I think forthright is mental more.

I don't hold a lot back if you really, especially if you get me in a one to one setting, I'm pretty open and if you ask me what I think and feel, I will tell you and I will try to do so carefully and kindly. But I can be a bit blunt sometimes. I've been told by those that are very close to me.

So I think forthright because honesty is like always telling the truth. But forthright is like no, I really will be an open book if you require that of me. I think I'm funny and I kind of stand by it.

I think what's funny is that sometimes I don't think I'm being funny. I call it the old grumpy man with a shotgun kind of energy like you know, on the porch.

And my family thinks it's hilarious and I'm just being being bitter and they're like comedy gold.

Lindsey: 00:42:48

Melissa, that's amazing.

Melissa: 00:42:50

Like, and I've talked to lots of other Fives that like describe the same kind of like when they get into their just sarcastic dry. That's when people are like, you are hilarious. Okay. I mean I can be more bitter if you want me to. Sure. So yeah, I think kind hearted.

I really deeply care about other people. I think that's why I am a good coach because I really, really care about the people that I work with.

And I mean if you start asking me about world events, that's the biggest way to get me to cry real fast. I just, I feel things so deeply about all the important stuff. That matters. So. And I care about other people's well being.

And a lot of the last one I've been told that it doesn't quite click in. So I'll just. Is wise. I think.

I think there's some sort of energy that happens when I let go of all of the knowledge and some different energy kind of flows through that's connected to like universal energy. And there's wisdom that kind of is both me and not me, if that makes any sense.

Abram: 00:44:06

Yeah. Yeah. I have an initial question around that.

Would you mind maybe unpacking or elaborating a little bit more around your hesitation around wisdom for you that describing yourself?

Melissa: 00:44:19

I think because like I am told often and not just by people who are like my friends, that I'm wickedly smart, but I don't necessarily feel that way. And I think that's a very five thing. It's actually a constant feeling of I don't know enough.

And if you surprise me with a question that I even might not that I might know, but I have so much knowledge, it's like I can't access that tab quick enough to sound smart enough to give you an answer when maybe I'll think of it and that tab will open 10 minutes or a day later. And I'm like, oh, I did know that. But it's just there's so much packed in there that it just never quite feels smart enough on the inside.

Creek: 00:45:10

I think that also seems to point to that. That line to seven of there's just. I just. There's never enough. But both seven and eight, right. There's. There's always more.

If I don't know it all, then I know nothing.

Melissa: 00:45:24

Yeah. And I think a lot of fives struggle with not being enough. So I think the not knowing enough and not being enough kind of connect.

I think because we don't feel like we ever are enough.

And even no matter how much we give, there's just this underlying deep wound of I'm not enough that we cover that or try to like assuage that with being smart and knowing things. It's like that. And that's that hole that doesn't get filled really. You have to just know that you are enough and then you can then be secure in I.

Oh, I am kind of wise sometimes. You know, they go together. I think.

Creek: 00:46:00

Yeah. To me that also points to. And we've. We've mentioned this numerous times, but I think it's.

It's helpful to just say it again is I think oftentimes in the literature and how fives are talked about, it's just like this. This hollow body that just kind of pours things in and not interactable. No feelings, that sort of thing. And you're just.

You're speaking straight to how that's just not the case.

Lindsey: 00:46:26

Absolutely.

Melissa: 00:46:27

I think sometimes it can be. I think if you're really deep in it and you're not aware and you're not. It's like the wounds kind of.

And the type energies and the parts inside take over.

I think I have definitely experienced fives as like disconnected from body and hollow and totally flat affect and so connected with a special interest that that's the only thing you can talk about. But I think the majority. I think that's in the lower levels of maybe health or awareness. And I think the higher up you get, the.

Abram: 00:47:04

The.

Melissa: 00:47:04

The more. Again, I'm not saying like, oh, I'm so, like, healthy or whatever. I just think that that's probably on a very low level and that, you know, there's.

So we're human beings, right?

Creek: 00:47:15

Absolutely.

Melissa: 00:47:17

We definitely sometimes don't feel like we are.

Abram: 00:47:21

Could you. Could you connect maybe the.

I would wonder if there's not just kind of a more natural sensitivity across the board for the 5 experience, but how maybe sensitivity, the extreme sensitivity and that hollow body maybe have some connection to it.

Melissa: 00:47:37

I think fives get so sensitive. Like, I mean, if using my own kind of sensitivity, I get overwhelmed by watering my plants, like it will be watering the plants day.

And I'd be like, why do I own this many plants? Like, my God, like, why did I choose this? This is too much. Why am I responsible? You know, literally anything can really overwhelm fives.

And so because there's that sensitivity, I think sometimes there's a need to turn, like, dial it down. Like mute or dial it down. And then that looks very like this. You know, if I'm in a group setting where I'm not comfortable, you will.

That's what I will look like. I will really not be engaged. You won't see a lot of expressiveness on my face. There's not a lot of tonality to my voice.

And I won't talk and I'll just kind of be sitting there. And it's because I'm so sensitive to. I don't feel comfortable, and I don't feel like I know anybody. And I. And I just.

It feels so much that it's like, okay, we just gotta to get through. Turn off, if that makes sense.

Lindsey: 00:48:48

I have a question there. When you're in that place. What feels really loving to you from the people around you?

Does it feel really loving to, like, just have them leave you alone and let you work through that? Does it feel loving for them to gently draw you back to connection? What's that experience been like?

Melissa: 00:49:06

That's a good question. I think my answer would differ based on how old I was.

If you are asking me, me in my 20s and maybe early 30s, it would be, leave me alone, let me sit in the back, and don't talk to me. Not because I'm unfriendly, just because I'm just. I just would rather like.

I would a lot of times bring a sketchbook to events so that I could just sketch in the back and listen but not need to engage with people.

Gayle: 00:49:39

As.

Melissa: 00:49:41

I've worked to bring up more of my social subtype, sexual is in the middle or one to one is in the middle for me. So, you know, I like new events more or like connections.

I think as I work to bring up social more and much more now in my 40s, it would be helpful if somebody came and talked to me. I would love that. And if we could, like, strike up a conversation and then they're like, oh, I'm gonna go talk to this person. You want to come?

I would adore that and be really, really. That would make me feel good.

Creek: 00:50:14

So there's. There's. So I have so many more questions, but we're trying to keep this in manageable. Bite size for people. But so I kind of.

Moving on to the last couple questions here. What's. What's a caution you would give people that you, as a.

As a five, have had to deal with that you're like, if I had one piece of advice here, be careful about doing this. I've done this a lot. And you should be cautious.

Melissa: 00:50:44

I think, as fives, be careful about. No, it is our first impulse to almost all things. I mean, and I don't want to speak for all fives, because sexual fives are different.

Like, one to ones, they're going to be saying yes a lot more because they're in that kind of juice and spark and energy and connection piece. Like, so I can't really speak for all of the three subtypes, but I do think there's a general reticence that the point of living is to live.

And we withdraw so much because we're so scared of making mistakes. We're so scared of doing the wrong things thing of saying the wrong thing that to say yes to life. More not to become somebody you're not.

I'm not inviting fives to get rid of energy. You know, limitations.

Lindsey: 00:51:41

Absolutely.

Melissa: 00:51:42

Work with the wiring that you have. But there's a lot more to you than you think.

You have a lot more capacity to connect with other people and to go out into the world and do things that you'd find surprising. You surprise yourself. I think Five surprise ourselves by being more embodied and engaged with the world.

So I would say say yes more in a way that resonates with your beingness still. You know, your innate wiring and your nervous system and all of that. That kind of stuff.

Creek: 00:52:15

I really love that. I mean, it. Living is for living, like, as. As like, you know, crocheted on a pillow, as that sounds like it is. It is. Really? Yeah.

If we let fear take over, then, yeah, we're not doing the very thing that we're here to do.

Melissa: 00:52:32

So it reminds me of the.

Lindsey: 00:52:33

It's.

Melissa: 00:52:34

It's giving, living. Like, isn't that thing that everybody. It's giving, living. It's giving.

Lindsey: 00:52:39

Thriving. Thriving. That was very wise. I don't know if ever anyone's ever told you that before, but that was very.

Melissa: 00:52:49

Oh, my gosh. Thank you so much. I received that with gladness.

Creek: 00:52:58

Okay. I have. I have one more question, then we're going to close things out here. So what's a.

What's a habit that's been hard earned for you that you would tell people? If you could just shift your perspective here, if you could just do this is going to have a massive impact on how you live, how you live life.

Melissa: 00:53:20

I think that no matter your type, and especially for type fives who are in the head triad and we disconnect, we can kind of be like floating heads of knowledge, but really all the types to have and cultivate a regular practice of connection with your body so that you learn your body's voice. I mean, truly, when you. When you have that consistent energy towards a relationship with your body, it almost sounds verbal.

Sometimes you pick up on its cues. And to be able to have that relationship really can guide you towards self care, wholeness. Well, being.

Knowing your emotions, knowing your thoughts, because it's such an integrative. I mean, it's kind of like life is for living. Like we are our bodies.

We wouldn't be here without our bodies, without our nervous systems, without our sense of smell and taste and how it feels to move and emotions need to be moved through the body. So, yeah, I think embodiment and embodiment practices and somatic Work is a hard earned as a five for me.

It took a while to learn that and it's been one of the most impactful things I think I've learned.

Abram: 00:54:41

It's beautiful. So for. For people listening who want to learn how to live the life they're living and learn from you more about that. Where.

Where can people track you down?

Melissa: 00:54:56

I'm on the all the socials I think except like WhatsApp. So Instagram, on Twitter, still X and just started TikTok.

It's enneagrampaths P A T H S and I have my website which is the same www.enneagram paths.com and you can connect with me.

Creek: 00:55:21

Amazing.

Melissa: 00:55:21

Through DM. You can go through the contact page, my website. Either one is great.

Lindsey: 00:55:26

Are there any exciting things that people should be looking for from you in the future?

Melissa: 00:55:32

I am working on a book I just signed with a literary agent and I'm in the beginning stages of crafting an Enneagram book. So I'm really excited about that. That will be a long process but I'm really, really thrilled to have the opportunity to do so.

Creek: 00:55:53

Well, congrats and thank you so much for bringing your wise self here and showing up.

Melissa: 00:55:58

Thank you for having me. Appreciate it.

Abram: 00:56:06

Type talk movie.

Talk about the type that was that we did that thing we do when we talk to people, the other humans about the thing they do a lot and sometimes overdo and sometimes not at all.

Creek: 00:56:28

I wonder people who are only listening to like one of the episodes. Wow, Abram's just so unenthusiastic. And listen to the other outros listener and you'll get context. Abram started doing it now we won't let him stop.

So.

Abram: 00:56:45

It'S rather fun actually for me.

Creek: 00:56:48

He's the king of vague.

Lindsey: 00:56:52

So we are king of caveats. King of stalled.

Abram: 00:56:59

Prefaces.

Lindsey: 00:57:00

Prefaces. That's what I was looking for. Yes.

Creek: 00:57:04

All right, so what did you all notice? Let's talk about the schools. Differences, similarities, challenges.

Lindsey: 00:57:13

Well, one thing that I really liked about this episode was how I felt like we really balanced out the teachers. You know, our conversation with Melissa really balanced out this perspective of fives.

Maria Jose and Terri both used the word sensitive to talk about fives.

And so yeah, I felt like the overall tone of this episode was unique to the ways a lot of fives are taught because I felt like there was a really good balance there of showing fives to be emotional and to have some sensitivity around their emotions.

And like Maria Jose was saying that there's a Striving to feel detached because they are very sensitive and they're not disconnected from their feelings. And that can be so overwhelming at times that there's a need to get some distance and space to sort that out.

And one of the things that Terri said was similar about feeling like they need to protect themselves from a world that just feels like it's too much and that it's hard for fives to feel really confident in their ability to handle the stimulus of their environment. And then Gail was talking about them as being those individuals who are able to perceive things very deeply. And so, yeah, I just loved those words.

In association with five, sensitivity, depth, emotion. I think that really broadens our understanding of a five in a way that we really need.

Creek: 00:58:59

In the literature, I think it'd be important to kind of define having emotions versus being emotional. Everyone has emotions, right. And it's about the relationship and what we feel we need to do with those emotions.

That's going to vary from person to person, type to type. I think fives obviously have emotions, have intense emotions, but I'm not sure I would go so far to say they are emotional in how they express it.

I think they can get emotional, but there is. There's an on, off switch where I'm not. I'm not sure I have an on off switch. But, yeah, I think that's. That's an important distinction to be made.

Yeah. Striving to feel detached is like the only way you're going to feel okay. Is to not. To not feel those emotions.

So you're going to have them, but you're going to have strategies to avoid being involved in them.

Abram: 01:00:07

Yeah. To kind of continue on some of the specific content here about emotions.

One thing I noticed from Mario that was different than at the other schools was there's, you know, there's this assumption about fives that it's. It's. It's about primarily learning and taking in information. When he actually was putting more of the focus on.

It's actually more about emotional detachment than it is information seeking, because I know. I know fives who don't have libraries. That's the. You know, that's the stereotype. But, yeah, I just think this.

That focus is really helpful to hear and not one that you. That you really regularly hear from other schools, I think, or other literature.

Lindsey: 01:00:58

And helpful in avoiding mistyping, too.

Creek: 01:01:01

That was something I was really listening to. Melissa. In the schools, it's like different. Different types. The instinctual bias. The instincts do create a width of variable.

I think fives is one of those that has the potential to have a large width of expression especially like transmitting five.

Lindsey: 01:01:22

Yeah.

Creek: 01:01:23

And it's going to look a lot. A lot different than a preserving 5. Obviously some similarities but I just think that's something to make sure to point out.

Abram: 01:01:33

Yeah. Because I mean I know a couple fives and some of them are really close to me and I am as well close to them.

And there's a very big spectrum from how open hearted and generous they are to other fives I know that are completely stingy with themselves and even the time that they give. That's a big spectrum that I experience from. From different fives.

Obviously that's like to me that's the example of how a person holds type but it's probably also expressed through the differing instinct as well.

Creek: 01:02:18

So yeah, the generic generosity was something I think came up when all the three schools of like they can be very generous. I think the fives in my life I've seen the generosity be there but also the very clear here. No further.

Abram: 01:02:36

Yeah.

Creek: 01:02:36

And depends on the day on some level from time to resources to all those sort of things which you put a preserve. You put like self preservation preserving on that five.

Lindsey: 01:02:47

Right.

Creek: 01:02:47

Like it's going to be a whole nother level of intensity of sharing those resources and also intensity of reserving them for themselves.

Abram: 01:02:56

Yeah, for sure. One preserving five. I know he has said something along the lines of I've told them that they are very.

They're one of the most generous people I know actually. But in saying that to them, their response was well, it's only with very limited people. It is not with. It is not with other people.

You're a part of the circle. You know, I think do tend to.

Melissa: 01:03:21

They.

Abram: 01:03:22

There tends to be a circle for fives of different levels of intimacy.

Creek: 01:03:28

A couple other things for me you'll hear this a lot about fives of being caught in their head or they need to get out of their head and into their body and that sort of thing. And I think I just want to clarify that terminology at least for me. I'm not going to speak for the other schools. But you can't get out of your head.

Lindsey: 01:03:50

Right.

Creek: 01:03:51

Everything is. Your brain is running your entire system.

So it's about productively thinking or getting into the world instead of just creating models about the world.

I see that a lot especially in transmitting fives where it's rather the idea of a person than having to interact with the person because an actual person is unpredictable and I can't predict the energy necessary to deal with that unknown. So it's not just about getting, exercising or whatever. It's like go, like Melissa said, live the life, do the things.

Don't just sit at a distance and observe and imagine yourself doing the things. So that sort of we need to get out of our heads and into our bodies. I get what you're saying. And also we're not going to act.

We're not going to act well if we're not thinking clearly. So it's just so think it's about thinking better. And that's something like another thing that I've seen of.

And though I do notice the whole they see what we miss and they do it like a deep dive into things that doesn't equal truth.

And I've seen that in so many different fives where it's like they've done a deep dive in an area which they know a lot about, but it could be a complete conspiracy theory. They know all the ins and outs of this thing.

But so just because it is they are obsessed about getting deep into the subject doesn't necessarily equal that they are doing it in a way that is, is like healthy and mature and adaptive and and honestly tied to reality. There's a propensity to want to close that uncertainty gap. I think I see that in sixes and in fives and sometimes in sevens, I guess.

But I just don't like that, that tension of not knowing what it's going to cost me or what could happen and therefore I'm going to find this complex amount of array of reasonings to help me feel better. So it's like it's about thinking better, not just about stopping or getting out of your head.

Lindsey: 01:06:12

Yeah, definitely. And I think that's good advice for any person who, because I'm this way too, I can get very fixated on a topic that I'm intensely curious about.

And I don't think I don't necessarily feel the need to like have an opinion or make a decision. I just want to know what's available on this topic.

And I think anybody with that propensity for fixation on an idea or a topic would greatly benefit from understanding things like biases, confirmation bias, bias, bias. Did I just say conversation?

Some of these clear thinking skills to make sure that yes, it's more than just a fascination or a fixation, it's solid clear thinking.

Can you either one of you say more about that briefly for listeners, kind of what you mean when you say it's about better thinking because not Everybody knows exactly what you mean when you say that.

Creek: 01:07:20

Yeah, I mean, it's everything from knowing, like you were saying, the confirmation bias, the logical fallacies, as far as how we trick ourselves to close the gap of what we're uncomfortable with, to reinforce our story and our worldview so we don't have to bear the discomfort of being wrong, of having to change how we think and act and feel about things. So falsifying your data instead of just finding more data that supports where you're already at. And it's really uncomfortable.

And I mean, I love finding out that I'm wrong, but it's never fun. Like, I've done it enough such that I know that the goodness afterward is worth the uncomfortable in the meantime, but it's still not enjoyable.

I still have to force myself to like, okay, let's do some research on how I'm wrong. This is not fun research. Because we all just want to feel right because that aligns with our self concept.

Lindsey: 01:08:27

Yes. I have so many thoughts rushing to my brain right now. Abrams, you have something to add?

Abram: 01:08:35

Yeah, no, I just. I like to think sometimes in the.

In the way of like, types, I think that you can learn, like, what are some primary lessons from type that you can learn? And I think one of them is like, more information. You were alluding to this too.

More information isn't wisdom, you know, or more insight isn't transformation. Just because you have insight doesn't mean your life has changed now you actually have to do something about it and practice it.

Just because you have more information, like you were saying, doesn't mean it's wisdom.

I forget where I heard this from, but I really love the definition of this definition of wisdom, that it is knowledge applied compassionately and that I. That idea of compassion, you know, the etymology, I mean, of it is to suffer with. Right. So it's the information.

Wisdom is knowledge applied compassionately.

And so I have to have the ability to have empathy, to experience the capacity to suffer with somebody and to have to know what it means to have pain of my own in order to connect with somebody else, with the information and the knowledge.

Otherwise it's not been used yet to the degree of how I can be in the world, not just as Maria Jose was talking about, conceptually understand the world through models. So I just think that is a really valuable way to understand the difference between wisdom and knowledge.

And I think what actually how and why A5 shows up with generosity is because it's more often than not, at least from what I've experienced a five who really is giving generously of their time and their energy is somebody that's allowed life to impact them and to affect them and to open them up because they recognize, oh, you're not going to take from me completely and I won't be fully depleted by others. This is a part of what it means to be here and to live the life I'm living.

Actually, that's not the first time I've heard that phrase or that idea from a five. Another friend we all know is one of his mantras is I'm choosing to live the life I'm living.

Creek: 01:10:52

And this is why, I mean fives get a rap of not having emotions is because it's to separate myself from the compassion piece gives me the ability to stay detached so that I don't have to deal with the muchness of the world. So, and you can quote, unquote, get a lot more done when you don't have emotions. You can.

And of course there's a, there's a beauty in being able to be detached or non attached to your emotions. You're able to stay objective.

And that's kind of also where kind of the sometimes blunt way of speaking and engaging others comes through is like you're asking me this question. Here's the, here's what I'm seeing. Here's the objective thing that I've observed.

And I just, I just think that is something that kind of also struck me listening to Melissa and the other schools is along, along what I was saying of all, all types are trying to care for themselves and for others. But it's how are they caring?

And I think like sixes or ones that are critiquing the system or the idea or whatever it feels doesn't feel great sometimes, but it's out of care to help you, to save you from further suffering. Fives caring is like giving you hard facts and truth regardless of how you feel about it.

Because yeah, in some ways empathy can blind, blind you to some of the tracks, to some of the facts and because we just want everyone to feel okay, to feel safe, to feel welcomed. Yes, yes, yes, yes. And sometimes we have to upset the boat with what the reality of the situation is. And that's not always a fun job.

Lindsey: 01:12:58

And sometimes really strong boundaries and clear yeses and clear nos based on observable data is the best way to care for yourself and another person.

Creek: 01:13:12

Yeah.

Lindsey: 01:13:13

Yeah.

I wanted to go back a second creek to you were talking about discomfort and I do think that that is a really good Way to start noticing how clearly you're thinking is just practicing noticing the discomfort. So I'm thinking about when Melissa was talking about that backlog of emotionality that fives can have. Sort of.

It sneaks up on them because they haven't really been noticing the emotions as they come, as they're happening in real time. And so they get backlogged, and then all of a sudden, bam, they're there front and center. And it can be a real surprise to everybody.

And so I think that the striving to detach can be reactive. You can do it intentionally when you need a boundary, when you need to take care of yourself, but it can just be reactive.

And so I think that a really, really good habit is just noticing, practicing noticing even the slightest emotion. I'm just a little bit annoyed right now. Just even the slightest. I'm just a little bit uncomfortable.

That thing that that person said just rubbed me the wrong way ever so slightly. And don't dismiss anything, no matter how small it seems.

And noticing that emotion and maybe noticing it is enough to prevent that backlog from happening. But maybe the second question could be, is there something I need to do about this? Do I need to speak up, or do I need to do something else?

Abram: 01:15:02

I wanted to kind of bring in another thing alongside of what you're talking about, too, Lindsay, because I think it's a regular, very normal human thing that everybody has backlogs of emotion that they haven't dealt with. It's definitely not just fives.

But how does a person whose primary lens is 5 deal with emotion, especially as it relates to trying to conceptualize the world to be in it the safest way?

Creek: 01:15:34

I'll take another.

A little tiny step back in defining backlog of emotion, and I'll just speak for myself, and you guys can disagree if you want, but if we're talking about, you know, my favorite neuroscience test, Lisa Feldman Barrett. I think the backlog of emotion is to define that a little further, is that the patterns in our brain that help predict our next action.

It's not that we have, like, a, you know, storage container somewhere in our chest that has discrete, specific emotions that we haven't processed yet. It's patterns in our brain that.

That consistently show up and redefine, distort, or give a different story about a certain situation in a way that is consistent with what we've learned through our past.

So I think everyone has that, and I just want to clarify that a little bit because I think that's important, because I think Sometimes in the self development community, there's this idea that if I don't process every emotion, it's just going to pile up in my storage container. It's like, no, that's not necessarily true.

I don't think it reinforces certain stories in your brain that are going to help you predict the next situation and how you're going to respond. But that's completely different than having these actual individual emotions that you haven't processed.

Lindsey: 01:17:13

Yeah, that's what I was going to say too. You could say it another way. As a narrative is forming and at some point you feel like you have such a solid narrative that then there's a reaction.

Is that kind of what you mean? Yeah, I think that's a really good clarification.

Abram: 01:17:34

I think there's something to say for whether or not our listeners are going to try and understand the actual mechanisms that work and how emotion comes into play.

There is something to say for different levels of intensity when emotion isn't dealt with or looked at or engaged, no matter whether it's actually a prediction or it is being informed or both. And by what's happening right now. You know, there is something to say for emotionality that has intensity to it.

And the process is based on our personality that maybe allow in or don't allow in emotion as easily, I guess.

Creek: 01:18:24

So let's dive in a little bit more with Melissa and what we just observed about her expression of fiveness.

Lindsey: 01:18:33

Well, she said she didn't think that she was a five at first. She thought that she was a four, which really gave me a lot of context for just her, her particular flavor of five.

Because a five that has mistyped as a four, you know, is showing up differently than a five that mistyped as a two or whatever. But yeah, just the. I think that there was a lot of energy and excitement around certain topics and that felt 5ish to me.

But also just, I think it's a good reminder for me for the ways that flat, that flats, for the ways that fives are painted as a bit flat at times.

And we've been talking about, you know, emotions and stuff like that, but on an energetic level, an engagement level, you know, striving to detach or, you know, the observer, it kind of can give this idea of someone who's slinking behind in the shadows, just kind of like peering out through their binoculars and that's not what it always looks like. You know, there's a lot of engagement from fives in certain situations. And so, yeah, just really lovely, lovely Conversation.

Creek: 01:19:55

And that was kind of where. I mean, I've seen some. Several different fives think they're fours. And I think it does kind of contribute to the. Well, the stereotype of both.

But sure.

Like, she was saying she thought she was a 4 because of, like, thrifting and she loved, like, fashion and she was the artist and all this other stuff, and that's why it's. I just. Yeah. Stereotypes are so harmful and not kind of getting underneath it is really. Yeah. Just not helpful. So that. The thrift show, the.

The thrift show, the. The thrifting, the clothing, the fashion show, the. The artist, that sort of thing. I mean, that can very much.

I don't remember what she identified her subtype to be, but that sounds a lot of like, transmitting activity, sex, like the sexual instinct. And then she also, in her. In her work, like observing the. The patterns, the algorithms, all those sort of things.

I mean, that's very much social navigating of. Of observing the landscape, observing the. What's. What's happening out there and how does it inform what I'm doing here. And so there's just. That's.

That's why I'm just like, the. The instincts and sexual bias must be considered in this because there's a lot.

Lot of things that people may be observing as 5 or 4 wing or whatever that may just be the expression of their subtype.

Abram: 01:21:27

Yeah.

I found it interesting that the equanimity, the equanimous piece of the four was also one of the ways in which she was feeling like she was doing four really well, actually. But.

But in reality, I think she was talking about how that she realized that was because as a five, she's really great at, you know, managing her emotions. You know, so depending on the lens through which you're interpreting it, it's, you know, you can see it different ways. So I just.

I found that really interesting. But I did. I think it was one of the last things she said that I thought was really valuable that you. What'd she say?

Learn your body's voice to guide you well in life. I mean, and that's a. You know, it's a. I think that's a good lesson for Fives, Just a lesson for humans in general, but for.

For people who tend to conceptualize rather than participate, you know, in life, I think getting into using your mind well, to get into the physical sensation of your body is a great way to recognize and to participate more and be here with people and be affected by people around you. So I Think that's just a really good mantra or lesson.

Lindsey: 01:22:45

Yeah, I loved that, too. I wrote that down. Learn your body's voice. She was talking about having a consistent energy toward building a relationship with your body.

And I was thinking about how in some fives that I know, the tendency to detach can look like the tendency to delay meeting the very basic needs of the body and whether it's because you're really involved in the thing that you're doing and you don't want to leave it or whatever reason. Yeah. Kind of like what I was saying earlier about emotions cultivating that relationship can look like. And I was just.

I just saw a reel on Instagram this week.

I think, Abram, you might have sent it to our group channel, but this psychologist was talking about cultivating a practice of the second that you realize you're thirsty, stop what you're doing and go get a drink of water. The second you realize you're hungry, stop what you're doing and go get some food. Not that everybody needs to do this, but if this is.

If this is a goal to build safety in your sense of physical space occupation, then that's a really, really great way to do it, is just stopping and noticing and honoring exactly what's needed in that moment. And I do think that that's a good way to build capacity.

Circling back to what we were saying before about Terri saying that fives often just feel like the world is too much. Like, I just don't have the capacity to deal with this.

Like, what if you can build your capacity to be able to handle what's happening in the moment and not feel overwhelmed by it?

Abram: 01:24:37

Yeah.

I mean, the idea that a lot of emotional regulation is connected to your capacity for what's called interoception, because emotion before the mind co ops it with, you know, past stories initially starts as a physical sensation. Right. One that is neutral.

And so interoception, when you can be more inhabited in the physical sensations inside that are happening and you, you know, inhabit that and get more comfortable with it and you feel them, it does give you more capacity to have the ability to regulate your emotions and help them go in more productive ways and not go along with the stories that usually that you do. So I'm with you, Lindsay.

I think getting into the physical sensation of your body is really valuable in that sense, especially for just fives, as a lesson for how using your mind, overusing your mind, can take you out of, you know, the wisdom that's also in your body and how they are Meant to be worked, worked well with in tandem.

Creek: 01:25:49

Something that came up for me. Five in my life of every type has different relationships with boundaries because boundaries are a human thing, right? So the.

The communication of boundaries is just, as we know, is just really, really, really key to living a long and healthy, happy life. And I think I've seen good examples of Fives communicating boundaries and poor examples, and there's Both have their logic to them.

But I would say in the times that it's been really helpful is, oh, this person is trying to accomplish something intense and will not have the time or energy or ability to respond to me or spend time with me or something like that over the next couple years or something like that. And that level of communication of I'm going to have boundaries around this, and this is not personal. This is just what I.

What is necessary for me to accomplish what I want to accomplish. But then there's also a propensity of. And we all.

All have this propensity on some level of not feeling the need to communicate things that are completely supposedly obvious to us where Fives. Like, it's. Isn't it obvious that I need time to recover and I need my space and I need my. I need to protect my energy and that sort of thing?

It's like, no, it's not. It's not obvious to everyone that you need to do that or that they need as much as you do.

So there can be a propensity in not communicating boundaries because they don't think about communicating it because it's just so normal and natural. And so it's, you know, it's both giving grace to the Fives in our life. Of. Yeah, they didn't think to communicate that because that's just so normal.

Natural for them to do. There was no ill intention in that. And also Fives out there just like over communicate your boundaries, you're gonna.

You're gonna be able to feel more. More ability to. To feel detached, more ability to kind of not feel drained by other people. If you communicate, this is what's going to happen.

This is not personal. This is just what I need in order to accomplish the thing that I'm going for. And I. I just. Yeah, that. That.

That really stuck out to me as Fives having a really extreme version of. Of that. And it can be done really well and really poorly, of course.

So final thing for me, I'm not sure what exactly where to actually put this, but I just noticed that both Melissa and Stephanie had difficulty owning the word wisdom.

Lindsey: 01:28:34

Wisdom. Yeah.

Creek: 01:28:36

And I'm like, could be. It could be a female thing. I would not venture to put too much wisdom weight on that. But it is an interesting data point. But also. Yeah, I don't know.

Do you guys have any thoughts about that? But that's just an observation of mine. I don't know what to think about it.

Lindsey: 01:28:53

I noticed the same thing. And my first thought was, like, well, I tend to trust somebody who is like, really me? I'm wise more than someone who's like, I'm wise.

You should listen to me.

Creek: 01:29:05

Yeah, that's fair. It's like saying, I'm humble, you know?

Lindsey: 01:29:07

Yeah, yeah.

Creek: 01:29:08

The people that are. Put that label on themselves are the. Typically the people that are not that thing.

Lindsey: 01:29:16

Yeah. So I did find it interesting. And I do.

I do think that you may be onto something about there being a collective story there based on gender, that for women to own their intellect or to own their impact. Their impact. Ooh, good one. Their wisdom. And the impact of their wisdom is to take up more space than women are sometimes given.

So it could feel like, especially if you're not a transmitting 4 or a transmitting 5, it could feel like in order to own this as a real part of my identity, I have to expand. And that's just uncomfortable. Don't hear me say something that I'm not saying. But I do think that I struggle to know exactly how to bring this up.

Now, I'm the queen of prefaces here. I struggle to know how to bring this up in a way that didn't sound just outright offensive.

But I do think it's worth noting, especially considering our work that we did with season four, and there was a guest that we were trying to have on the show who was an enneagram5 who also is on the autism spectrum. And we wanted to talk to him about that overlay, that specific overlay.

What I heard from all three of the schools, even from Melissa, were specific words and phrases that I know that.

Melissa: 01:30:56

People.

Lindsey: 01:30:58

With autism or people with adhd, they also display those features and characteristics.

Things like feeling easily overstimulated in certain situations or wanting to work intensely with the thing that interests them to the exclusion of other things. That's an ADHD feature.

And so I just thought that it was worth pointing out again, that you have to consider these overlays, because a lot of times I've heard someone talking about or someone assuming that someone with autism is a five. Do you know what I'm saying? Like, looking at those features very flatly and then making a direct Correlation to an enneagram type.

Something to be aware of.

Abram: 01:31:54

I mean, and there's been early work that was initially correlating DSM diagnosis with certain enneagram types. I think even, like, if you go into pathology with this type, well, then you're more likely to have this sort of DSM category.

I don't really know if I buy into that, but I wonder if there's some. Some similarities between, like making sure we're. We're separating. The idea of like, you know, this word narcissism is thrown around so much.

But do this. Does that person actually.

Are they selfish or, you know, is that actually the behavior we're talking about or do they actually have narcissistic personality disorder? There are. That's very different things. And I. And I think separating.

Is that where you're kind of going, Lindsay, it's important to just not make sure that these are not one in the same. We're not doing that here.

Lindsey: 01:32:47

Yeah, yeah. Like, for example, it's easy to be like, oh, like to equate sevens with adhd because your brain is kind of bouncing all over the place.

Or you're bouncing from interest to interest ones, sixes, ocd. Right. Like, that is just so negligent. And I just really wanted to. Just too much to.

Abram: 01:33:07

Ness does not lead to this. Yeah, right. That's not how it works. Yeah.

Lindsey: 01:33:13

When we're coaching or teaching these things, just being aware of our language and being. And I'm not saying that any of the teachers or Melissa were being negligent or misusing the language.

I just heard certain phrases that I was like, oh, I want to make sure we mention, for example, like the work of Sharon Ball or Renee Siegel, who are doing this kind of work of identifying trauma before the type and working with diagnoses before you're seeing how that expresses itself through type. Does that make sense?

Creek: 01:33:47

Yeah, for sure. And like we talked about in the two episode of like codependence. Is that a very two thing? And it's like, no, everyone has some.

Some level of proclivity towards some level of dependence, whether that's anti codependent or codependent or whatever variation. Same with attachment, you know, And I think there's also just a. In the earlier books, and I would need to go fact check this.

But if there is a correlation of the.

The quote unquote, lower levels of health being correlated to a DSM 5, you know, like autism or something like that is not a lower level of health thing. Not necessarily. Like, there can be Expressions. Right. But it doesn't equal unhealthy.

Lindsey: 01:34:33

That's it. That's what I'm trying to get at is the danger of veering towards dehumanizing people because of that specific thing.

Creek: 01:34:46

And in the integrin community and the mental health community, there's an over diagnosis happening in order to make ourselves feel like we know ourselves. You know, like you go on to Instagram for five minutes and scroll through, you're going to have ADHD and some form of autism in a matter of seconds.

Because there's, there's that and then that's not to diminish people that feel like they connect with, with how their brain, their neuro. Spicy brain or whatever.

But it is, there is a trend towards wanting to be identified as here's what's wrong with me and can either push off my responsibility to improve or. I don't know, there's a million reasons. Right. But it's just a caution. It's not an indictment on anyone. It's just a caution.

First of all, conflating the two models because it is a, it is a form of a model. Right. Spectrum autism, autistic spectrum, like that. It's not defining who you are.

It's not defining, it's defining how you act based on your patterning, based on what's important to you. All these sort of things. So not necessarily correlating those things. Understanding the layers, you know, I'm striving to feel detached.

Of course that's going to look, that's going to hold some similarity to someone who easily gets overstimulated for whatever reason. And how we deal with that is much more important. And how do we grow and how do we change?

And that's again, back to the labels are not important unless they're able to lead you into some sort of more adapt to mature and skillful action.

Abram: 01:36:24

Yeah. Because Lindsay did. I want to take a turn of going backward on one more thing real fast.

Creek: 01:36:29

Okay.

Abram: 01:36:31

I just, I wanted to bring in a little clarity. I think it's helpful around detachment and boundaries.

And this might have been mentioned briefly in the episode, but I think fives and other people tend to conflate about fives.

The boundaries and detachment are one of the same and they're not to set boundaries, you have to have a semi healthy relationship with your emotions so that you can express. I have this need and I need this to not happen.

And detachment is actually emotional suppression where you're not allowing yourself to have the emotions. And so they're not one and the same. So I think there's just something to say for.

Boundaries are actually where, you know, both parties have needs and both parties are expressing those needs. And that's what helps a relationship thrive versus, you know, detachment isn't allowing for relationship. Actually, those are very different things.

I just think that's important to express.

Creek: 01:37:34

All right, so do you want to.

Lindsey: 01:37:35

Go backwards on anything?

Creek: 01:37:36

No, we're going to keep going forwards. Zaddy has spoken. There's been a. Apparently people think I'm the dad of the podcast. I've taken Drew's position.

Um, I've shared that with a couple different people, and they've all laughed and been like, yep, that's. That's what I've been feeling.

Abram: 01:37:59

It's true.

Creek: 01:38:00

Um, the only one that doesn't have children. All right, so let's talk about mistyping. I think Melissa talked about the four. I've seen that a lot. I think there's that.

That sort of intensity in a direction. Honestly, that's kind of one of the only places that I see the similarity.

I mean, unless you do stereotypes of, like, I'm into art or I'm into that sort of thing, but, like, on the base layer, it's just like an intensity and a direction. I don't see much other overlap. Do you guys.

Lindsey: 01:38:30

Intellectualization of feelings?

Creek: 01:38:32

Yeah, maybe. I never do that.

Lindsey: 01:38:37

Okay.

Abram: 01:38:39

Yeah. I mean, I've heard it said that. I guess this is maybe the same thing you're saying. I don't know. Feel free to cut it out. But. Yeah, that. That.

Fours are using their thoughts to intensify their emotion. Fives are using their emotion tent to intensify their thoughts.

Creek: 01:38:54

Yeah, there's something there. Like I said already. Sixes, six and five. I see that. Like, there's the anticipation, the. I think Terry said something. Preview and review of this.

I need to collect more data so that I feel safe. Right. Know what I'm getting myself into or that sort of thing. So there is some. Some threat prediction happening that can look rather similar.

Lindsey: 01:39:26

What about nines?

Creek: 01:39:29

Yeah, for sure. That sort of pulling back to stay above the fray or apart from the fray.

Abram: 01:39:37

Yeah. And even I think Melissa alluded to this too. There's a. I do think there tends to be a neutrality about fives as well.

A more objectivity, I should say more of an objective. Trying to take more of an objective perspective. And that can look like taking in all of the options.

Lindsey: 01:39:59

Unless it's something they really know a lot about. Then I feel like they would really be willing to put A stake in the ground.

Creek: 01:40:07

They can be very forceful and blunt.

Lindsey: 01:40:09

Yeah.

Abram: 01:40:10

Which, yeah, yeah.

And I don't mean like objective is like passive, but just if you can ask them to give you an objective point of view and there's more of a ability to do that. And I think that can come off as, oh, I'm hearing more options. I'm hearing more, more. I'm hearing the full spectrum.

Creek: 01:40:31

Yeah. I think, I mean, again, these are lines too, but 8 and 7.

The excessiveness of, depending on where the direction of that excessiveness, the bluntness, the intellectual, what's the word? Intellectual arrogance. And can be rather visceral in how they respond. So I think there's some overlaps there too. I don't know.

There's, I can't really make a case for a three or a two. Not easily. Maybe, maybe in some ways, but maybe.

Abram: 01:41:08

One, but I think in the one, just kind of a rationality, I think they can share some of that quality in their approach, maybe toward accomplishing things and getting things, getting things done.

Creek: 01:41:27

This is, I, I know we, I, I, I could make a case for a two or three, but they, you have to lean a little bit more on stereotypes. But I think that's, this typing is so hard, Everyone. Like, it is so hard.

It's so hard and it's so complicated and depending on the data you have in this perspective and your biases and thereby all, all of those things, it's just, it's not easy. And, and some people can land on their type relatively quickly and it stick throughout the lifetime.

Other people, like, change two or three times, you know, because like, oh, wait, no, this, this is the, this is more true than my last, my last type or whatever. So in the spirit of five, I suppose, like, keep investigating, keep, keep discovering, keep asking questions. Abram, do you got a quote for us?

Abram: 01:42:26

Yeah. This from Mary Oliver. To truly know the world, you must be willing to let it touch you.

Not just with your mind, but with your heart and your body as well.

Lindsey: 01:42:37

I like that a lot.

Creek: 01:42:39

So for each of you, what's something practical that we can leave our listeners with that is inspired by fives? Not necessarily just for fives, but inspired by them.

Abram: 01:42:51

Going back to the thing I said about boundaries, sure. People can be a sensitive area. That maybe is the primary space in which you feel like your energy is being taken.

But with trusted people having your emotions, you can build up your capacity to set boundaries instead of just having detachment. So find who are your close people and practice, I think maybe expressing some emotionality with them. I think in a safe way.

Creek: 01:43:27

I would say for me, the kind of the objectivity piece, the Be ruthless with your ideas.

Don't stop being curious and take take steps to try to find out how you're wrong so you can have a clearer, more objective picture of what's actually happening, whether that's emotionally or something ideologically. I don't even know if that's a word. But take steps to find out how you're wrong so you can see clear.

Lindsey: 01:43:59

I just love how Fives seem so comfortable with and seem to enjoy their own inner thought life. And I think that that is just the enjoyment of being with yourself.

The enjoyment of I can follow this train of thought endlessly and that's really enjoyable for me.

I think there's a commitment there to slowness that I really adore and to just taking your time, taking as much time as is needed with an idea instead of just touching it and then being onto the next thing. That's something I find really beautiful and want to cultivate more for myself.

Creek: 01:44:53

That's great. That's great. Well, thanks Fives for what you're doing in the world and we'll talk to you all in a couple weeks.

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