Type 7: The Pursuit of Freedom, Possibility, and Joy

Creek: 00:00:02

Welcome back to Fathoms and Enneagram podcast. We are at seven. Finally. We've arrived. You. And if you have actually listened to all the episodes leading up to this one, like, well done.

You know, we got two more, but, you know, well done.

Abram: 00:00:21

How do you have so much time on your hands?

Lindsey: 00:00:26

I just feel like that intro should be, like, all of us cheering and applauding and whooping for multiple reasons.

Creek: 00:00:35

And what would those reasons be?

Lindsey: 00:00:37

Because it's the seven episode. Because we made it through all nine types. Yeah, because it's the seven episode.

Creek: 00:00:45

All right. You can do that.

Abram: 00:00:46

Yeah.

Milton Stewart: 00:00:47

I'm excited.

Lindsey: 00:00:48

Can we just try? Can you try for me?

Creek: 00:00:51

Hip hip hooray.

Milton Stewart: 00:00:52

Welcome back.

Creek: 00:00:59

Oh, that took a lot out of me.

Lindsey: 00:01:01

That was an effort. That was a choice.

Creek: 00:01:03

So. And it is 7:30 where I am at. I'm globetrotting currently. Currently in Denmark. I just finished with the Danish.

Yes, Abram, I might put it in the bloopers, but at the end of the episode. If you haven't listened to the end of the episode on any of them, you should go back. But oh, yes, bloopers.

In season five, Abram just discovered how to say people from Denmark.

Abram: 00:01:30

No, no, no. This is the first time I just learned this. I just didn't remember it. I knew that already.

It's just my brain doesn't always connect things in the moment when I need it to.

Creek: 00:01:40

All right, so let's jump into defining our terms, the favorite part of the episode. Lindsay, why don't you kick us off, please?

Lindsey: 00:01:50

All right, so if you've been tracking with us so far through all of these episodes, you'll notice a pattern that we are beginning each episode by defin terms, which we feel very enthusiastic about defining our terms.

So we want to recap a few of the ones that we've done at the beginning of each episode that are really important and sort of a through line for the whole season. And then also give you a couple of definitions that are type specific for this episode you're about to listen to.

So first up, we have type, which is a category of people or things having common characteristics. Also a person or thing symbolizing or exemplifying the ideal or defining characteristics of something.

Creek: 00:02:36

Then we have strategy, a plan of action or policy designed to achieve a major or overall aim.

Abram: 00:02:43

Next term to define is pattern, a regular and intelligible form or sequence discernible in certain actions or situations.

Lindsey: 00:02:52

We always disagree about how to do.

Creek: 00:02:54

This one, but we don't disagree. We've just chosen to do it the right way. Way. So go ahead.

Lindsey: 00:03:03

Model a simplified and provisional description of a system or process to assist calculations and predictions.

Creek: 00:03:11

Here are some words you may hear in today's episode. So as it relates to Sevens Enthusiast, a person who is very interested in a particular activity or subject.

Abram: 00:03:23

Enthusiasm, intense and eager. Enjoyment, interest or approval, Excited.

Lindsey: 00:03:33

Having, showing or characterized by a heightened state of energy, enthusiasm, eagerness, et cetera.

Creek: 00:03:40

Finally, we have stimulate to excite to activity or growth or to greater activity. And then one more that Lindsay, you wanted to kind of bring up was kind of one of the older terms of Epicurean.

Why don't you tell us, why don't you tell us what you learned today?

Lindsey: 00:03:59

Well, I wanted to add this because you'll hear in this episode, you'll hear Christopher Copeland mention that the narrative used to call Sevens the epicure. And he doesn't really explain what that means. He just says that they no longer use that term.

So I thought it would be important for us to explain where that comes from. I personally think it's a really good definition for sevens. Or not a definition, but a good descriptor for Sevens.

So this term comes from an ancient Greek. Greek. In ancient Greek philosophy, started by. Is it Epicurus or Epicurious?

Abram: 00:04:39

I think it's Epicurus.

Lindsey: 00:04:41

Well, I think it's interesting, the timing of this for me, because I was just listening. I was just listening to a podcast that we all enjoy called Philosophize this, and he was talking about epicureanism.

And what was really interesting to me about that is that he. He names sort of the. The stereotype of this philosophy as being synonymous with like, hedonism and this pursuit of materialistic pleasure.

Creek: 00:05:11

Indulgence.

Lindsey: 00:05:12

Indulgence, right. But what it actually was, what this philosophy was actually about was learning how to live a life that is good, that is worth living.

And so Epicurus, his ideas about what that meant actually included what I found to be some pretty profound virtues and ideals, including community, friendship, knowing what you believe and living that out with integrity, keeping yourself free from unnecessary fears, which means taking a good look at your belief system and clarifying your belief system so that you're not, you know, arousing your mind and exciting your mind with unnecessary fears. And I thought, yes, it's an older term, but I do think that it really gets at what a 7 is doing, which is seeking pleasure, avoiding pain.

But within that accurate definition is also the pathway for a seven. It's not. It is what is what is going to lead to true pleasure or.

Yeah, and we can talk more about that later, I guess, as we kind of unpack everything. I have more thoughts about that, but I thought it was important.

Creek: 00:06:28

Yeah, I especially liked it, of course, like that a word like epicurean or whatever can be mishandled. But it, yeah, the.

The whole background of the philosophy does depict, I think, something along the lines of freedom from pain, which is different than the pursuit of pleasure. We pursue pleasure in order to be free from pain or discomfort or something like that.

And I think that kind of gets a little bit a layer deeper, like it's not just.

Yeah, we don't have to get into the whole philosophy thing, but I do think that describing the epicurean as the pursuit of being free from pain describes what's motivating a seven than just pleasure. Abram, what were you going to say?

Abram: 00:07:16

I remember about the Epicurean word within this context is like the word refinement, like a refined enjoyment, which I. Which I kind of hear of as, you know, you're understanding the whole philosophy.

Not it's less a way to people take philosophy and use it as adjectives, but that's really minimizing the value that's there. And recognizing the Epicurean perspective is there is a. You can use it to become more adaptive, you can use it to become more.

Have a deeper enjoyment, to recognize where that comes from if you know what you're running for more, why you're pursuing what you're pursuing. You know, that's where I was drawing on, where I was picking up what the value of that word is.

Lindsey: 00:07:59

Yeah, for sure.

Creek: 00:08:00

All right, so things to keep in mind as you're listening.

As always, it is hard to talk about just type without also including subtype, which is the combination of the type or strategy combined with the instinct or instinctual bias, depending on the model that you use. So keep that in mind. There's a lot of variation to each type, so.

And with that for beginners as well, if there's language or things being thrown around that you're not entirely sure what we mean, first of all, reach out to us. Plenty of ways to get in contact with us in the show notes.

And then Abram will also provide links in the show notes for just your further study of these topics. So. And then finally, listen with curious ears. Don't just go around finger pointing different people. See what does.

What does this have to do with my life? How does this apply to me and how I see the world or how I don't like to see the world? So there's that?

All right, so without further ado, here are the teachers ata.

Maria Jose: 00:09:14

Type 7. Sevens are striving to feel excited. And this is more kind of similar to what other approaches teach in terms of type 7.

They focus on possibilities and options. They want to give their option, they want to see what their options are, they want to keep them open, they want to have several.

And that feels like they have more freedom. They're generally, but not always upbeat and they tend to be engaging, very optimistic and curious.

I think that that's one of the main characteristics and qualities of sevens. To me, it's how curious they are, how interested they are in things that many of us even see under stress. They may become easily distracted.

And when we understand the whole logic of it, if I'm curious, if I get excited about things, if I want to keep options open, all of those things are kind of always like opening up and they get distracted. They also avoid unpleasant situations. They because they're not exciting.

And they may leave projects unfinished, which doesn't mean that they all will. And that's another misunderstanding of sevens, that they never finish projects or things like that.

There's these almost not tendency, but desire to leave a project unfinished and move on to the next thing. But many of them have the discipline to finish them. And but there's this desire to avoid things that become boring.

The connecting points for type seven, the neglected strategy. It's type five, trying to feel detached. If I'm striving to feel detached, it feels like I'm going to miss out on something.

I'm going to lose opportunities because I'll be, I don't know, alone or withdrawn or things like that. However, sevens do like their alone time and many times they don't even know how to explain it because it's not part of their public identity.

People would not imagine how much sevens enjoy just reading a book, a book alone in their rooms. And the support strategy.

It's type one striving to feel perfect so they want to be do the right thing enough so that you leave them alone so that they can do whatever they want. There's almost like there's this desire to do things perfectly because it allows them to feel more excited. It's not for perfection itself.

I can really enjoy if things are done perfectly. I can really enjoy if I'm not bothered because I didn't do the right thing.

Mario Sikora: 00:12:25

I think that seven is Marie Jose mentioned when she talked about the three, that threes are often misunderstood and misrepresented among the types. And I Think this is common with sevens as well.

I think that the literature and stereotypes about seven are really missing the bigger picture of things.

And one of the things we find is that a lot of people don't see, you know, can't see themselves when they're sevens because they think sevens are supposed to be superficial or that they're happy all the time. And you know, anybody that knows real sevens knows that they're not happy all the time.

In fact, it's one of the types that we find anecdotally, at least, suffers more from depression than pretty much any of the other types.

So there is this, you know, there's this idea that this happy face that they put on in public is how they feel all the time and it's just not the case.

Again, there's this idea that, you know, they're not that smart or they're superficial or they quit things too soon and, you know, this, it's just not the case. Yes, they get distracted. Yes, they're looking for stimulation. Yes, they can jump around, but when they have to, they get stuff done.

Lindsey: 00:13:38

Enneagram Institute.

Gayle: 00:13:42

Okay. And last but not least, we have type 7, the enthusiast. And this is the excitable variety seeking type.

Sevens are just so spontaneous and versatile and generally upbeat and they can also be hyperactive and excessive down the levels.

We also call sevens the free spirited ones, the optimists, the energizer, the energizer bunnies, visionaries, the bon vivant, because they just tend to have this sort of freewheeling love of life. And their philosophy is, you know, life is a banquet and I'm here to taste and explore and get as much of it as I possibly can.

We also call them the adventurer, the entertainer, the Peter Pan Sevens have a way of remain. If they're healthy, they have a way of remaining very youthful even into, you know, old age.

I think there's something biologically that they have an advantage that they have in addition to the fact that because they are a positive outlook and because they are so optimistic and because they just naturally look on the bright side of things and have gifted at making lemonade out of lemons, I think that actually contributes to their health and longevity as long as they're not, you know, they don't become hedonists and, you know, destroy themselves with, you know, too much of a good thing or get into crazy schemes. But the essential qualities for the seven are freedom and joy and a healthy seven.

They're, they're just so wonderful to be around because, I mean, who doesn't want to be around someone who is celebrating freedom and joy.

And I have a lot of best friends who are several best friends in my life who are, who are sevens, who I love to travel with and you know, if I'm feeling, you know, down in the dumps, I know who to call immediately to get just a little bit of pep talk and to be told that whatever I think my problem or my issue is, it's like it doesn't really matter in the long run and let's go do something fun and can just pop me right out of it.

So the basic fear that sevens have, and people can have a hard time understanding this, but the basic fear of the seven is being deprived and trapped in emotional pain. Now people like to say that sevens are pain adverse but you know, who isn't?

I mean nobody, you know, pretty much nobody want, you know, enjoys like being in pain and suffering.

But the particular spin on it, what happens for the sevens is that they're afraid that if they get into any kind of emotional pain that it's going to be forever, that it's like quicksand, that anything negative or dreary or sad or unpleasant or tragic that they put their attention on is going to suck them in and they're never going to be able to get out of it.

And that's the basic fear and that's something that they will avoid at all costs because the basic desire of the seven is to be happy, to be free, to be satisfied, to be fulfilled. So they take that upon themselves to make sure that that's the kind of life that they lead. They're self starters, they're an assertive type.

They definitely go after what they want and they're more than happy to have, you know, happy co conspirators and people along for the ride, for their adventures.

But don't try to pin them in and don't tell them that they can't do something and don't tell them that you're going to in a relationship, keep them from doing what it is that they want to do because it just won't work. They tend to be down the levels, gluttonous. You know, the idea is that you can never have too much of a good thing.

What they have to come to grips with when they start doing this work is to develop the capacity to develop the ability to actually be here.

Now as Ram Dass, a famous seven taught to be here in this moment and savor and take in and enjoy fully what this moment has to offer rather than the trap that they're mostly caught in, which is anticipating the next thing, the greener pasture, what I could be doing, who I could be talking with, where I could be traveling.

So for the seven, it's about coming back to presence and really learning to be here now, to be present in this moment and enjoy and appreciate and savor what life has for me. Just here, just now, the narrative enneagram.

Christopher: 00:18:40

I want to talk about the last in the head center here, type 7. And again, we traditionally have called that the epicure in the narrative. Many people don't know what that word means. It's a kind of weird word.

So we're actually calling that the enthusiast. It feels like a better word to name with the seven, kind of get a sense of it. So the worldview for sevens is.

Is that the world is a limiting place, a frustrating place. It causes pain, and all that can be avoided. I often share this with sevens, and they go, that's not my worldview.

The worldview is that the world is my oyster. The world is just full of possibilities. And I would say, yeah, that's actually the response to the underlying worldview.

Because the underlying worldview is something about limitation and frustration. And I, from the seven perspective, I. I don't want to be limited, and I don't really. I don't want to feel pain. But pain is another form of limitation.

It's like limitation feels like death. And so in a world where things might limit me, sevens tend to respond by thinking about possibilities.

We call it pleasant possibilities, we might say, or what are the options? Or what could be this? And so this kind of future orientation towards possibilities.

And there's a sense of, like, I want to escape the limitation, the frustration, the possible pain. And I want to kind of ensure the good life. I want to be things to be positive. I want. I want to feel okay in the world.

So if I can focus on the adventures or the opportunities or the possibilities, it allows me to kind of transcend. I would use that word in quotes. These. These limitations. And so there's a protection here.

And actually, I think all of us in a certain way do this protection work. And I think those in the head center do.

The protection is a big piece of this, but they protect themselves from that limitation by doing that future possibility, thinking, what if? What if? Oh, here's an idea. I've always said sevens have, you know, so many ideas.

And whenever I teach, I always say, the sevens are probably bored thinking about what they're going to do after the work workshop, that they're sitting in. So the strengths for Sevens are this kind of optimism. There is a kind of sense of, of like, oh, it's all going to be good.

This is sort of the silver, classic silver lining, right? Like reframing. It's going to be okay. We're going to make this work.

And so sevens can be a cheerleader and sevens can be like, yeah, we can make this happen, let's all do it. There's a positivity. They often bring a fair amount of energy and kind of joy. There's an imagination because they also can connect with the ideal.

Thinking about possibilities, options. There's also a creativity here. And so, you know, this, this, I will say this, that the.

We sometimes stereotype sevens as the life of the party and that's not always the case. You know, there, there are plenty of introverted sevens and yet all sevens bring that sense of positivity. It might show up differently.

They may not be the center of, you know, the enjoyment, but they're going to bring a sense of playfulness or a sense of positivity to whatever they're a part of. The challenges really are, you know, make sense here. They're sort of like avoidance of pain.

So not sticking with something that feels really difficult or feels limiting. There can kind of, kind of be a booting out. I say sometimes it's like, oh, this was fun while it lasted, I'm out of here.

And so keeping attention and presence with things that are difficult, following through when things get boring. Sevens hate being bored. This can be really challenging. I often say sevens are authority rejecting.

And what I mean by that is maybe similar to the six but different, which is sort of sevens go. I mean, yeah, I mean if the authority fits what I want to do, that's fine, but if it doesn't, I'm going to do something else.

So there's a kind of, that can be, as you can imagine, very challenging. The driver here for the seven is to experience positive possibilities and to keep options open.

And I want to keep the options open to escape limitation. So of course attention goes to what are the options, what are the possibilities.

So the open hearted quality where we talk about kind of like when the type begins to relax a bit and the heart begins to, to open. The word we use here for the seven is steadiness. There's been a number of words. Sobriety is one, constancy is one that's been used.

You know, steadiness I think is a really good word here too. But there's this sense for the Seven. They can bring a kind of steady attention and presence to what is kind of being with whatever arises.

The joy and the pain, the difficulty and the delight. Light and really able to stay steady with it.

And when they can experience all of the breadth and depth of life, it allows them to really be present to themselves and to the fullness of life and ultimately not be limited.

Creek: 00:23:45

Milton. Classy Stewart.

Milton Stewart: 00:23:49

Still remember that.

Creek: 00:23:51

Oh gosh. Call back for the OGs that listen to the IEA podcast when we had Milton on. Milton is a. Is a. So I guess we could. I mean, friend. You're a friend.

You're a friend. Yeah, yeah, old friend. Not him as old, but we've, we've known each other for some time. I'm just digging myself a hole right now.

Milton, how you doing?

Lindsey: 00:24:17

I think you should start over. Can we guys, can we call him a friend yet? Yeah, I guess we can call him a friend.

Milton Stewart: 00:24:25

Let's, let's huddle real quick, guys, are we. Hold on.

Lindsey: 00:24:28

Milton will be right back.

Creek: 00:24:29

Discuss whether or not he's a friend.

Milton Stewart: 00:24:32

Let's determine if. Milt, has he reached friend level?

Lindsey: 00:24:35

Oh, no, we didn't talk about this before we started.

Creek: 00:24:37

Shoot.

Milton Stewart: 00:24:39

Oh, I'm doing well. I'm excited to be here. Thank you all for inviting me back. I love the energy. Love it, love it, love it.

Creek: 00:24:48

So we'd like to get to know you in a more non traditional way. But first, can you give a brief, just like outline of where you are, who you are and that sort of thing?

Milton Stewart: 00:25:01

Where am I at in time and space? So at this point of time and space, I am in the Memphis, Tennessee area in my office. And who am I? I am a lot of things, but for this show.

Enneagram facilitator, IEA board member. I also love helping people become liberated and I really enjoy the Enneagram.

Creek: 00:25:29

Amazing. That's good. Abram, why don't you give us a rapid fire question for Milton?

Abram: 00:25:40

Yeah, I was about to talk and my jaw popped. I don't know what that was about.

Lindsey: 00:25:45

You're 40 now. Buds.

Milton Stewart: 00:25:47

Slow fires. Maybe a slow fire this one.

Abram: 00:25:53

I didn't do my face stretches. My usual face stretches.

Lindsey: 00:25:56

Your face yoga.

Abram: 00:25:58

Ah, okay.

Creek: 00:25:59

Icy hot on it.

Abram: 00:26:00

Yeah. So to, to kind of just, you know, bring in some humanness and some fun to start this thing off with.

We wanted to start with some, some rapid fire questions. So here's one that is not too serious. What is the fastest you've ever driven in a car?

Milton Stewart: 00:26:22

I would say probably about 110 110. Probably. I was.

Abram: 00:26:28

And how long ago?

Creek: 00:26:31

That's your limitations.

Milton Stewart: 00:26:32

Okay. Okay. Right, right. This was. This was college? No, no, it was a few years after college, but that's it. It's. They had, like, a Mustang or something.

It was on an open highway in a country area. And I just hit it. I hit it.

Creek: 00:26:47

That's great.

Lindsey: 00:26:47

The eyes. The way your eyes just got so big.

Abram: 00:26:51

Was anybody with you?

Milton Stewart: 00:26:53

Yeah, two friends were with me. They wanted to be in a Mustang with their hair blowing in the wind, and they were in the back seat, so we was just like, let's go. So we just.

And it was great.

Lindsey: 00:27:02

Their dream come true.

Milton Stewart: 00:27:04

I did. I did. And we did it safely, if that makes any sense. I don't know if it does, but actually, you know, I love it.

Lindsey: 00:27:14

So that was when you discovered how much you love liberating people. The wind in your hand. 110 miles.

Creek: 00:27:22

This is what I want to do.

Lindsey: 00:27:25

With the rest of my life.

Milton Stewart: 00:27:27

I'm very excited and scared at the same time. Are there any costumes, Lindsey?

Lindsey: 00:27:33

So yesterday was Halloween at the time of this recording. So I want to know when was the last time you dressed up for Halloween, and what was your costume?

Milton Stewart: 00:27:41

So the last time I can remember dressing up for Halloween was when I worked in elementary education, so this was probably about seven years ago now. And I dressed up as, like, I remember the costume, but I don't even know it was from some TV show.

Like, I don't know if it was, like, space and cowboys or something, but I was, like, a black cow guy. I don't know what. I have to send y' all a picture because, I don't know.

I had a hat on with a handkerchief and, like, the black, like, shirt and the pants.

Lindsey: 00:28:09

And we'll link it in the show notes.

Milton Stewart: 00:28:11

Yeah, yeah. Someone. Someone. I was like, do this. And I was like, okay. So that was the last time I remember dressing up. I don't even know what I was.

But I remember the picture, though.

Lindsey: 00:28:21

Was it like, the school was doing a theme and you didn't have a choice? They just, like, assigned you something, probably.

Milton Stewart: 00:28:28

So it was one of those things, you know, like, all the teachers would dress up. And I was like, okay, what do I have at the house? Because I'm not about to go buy a costume, you know? So I think that's what happened.

Lindsey: 00:28:37

Yeah, well, seven years ago. There you have it.

Creek: 00:28:40

Do you know what a white elephant gift is?

Milton Stewart: 00:28:43

Yes, I do.

Creek: 00:28:44

What was the last one that you either received or gave?

Milton Stewart: 00:28:48

I don't Remember receiving one, but I think I remember we played White Elephant as a joke, and I brought something really weird. I think I brought undergarments for a black person. I think they.

Lindsey: 00:29:00

I love that.

Milton Stewart: 00:29:03

And I think it was hilarious because, I mean, I don't know, it was something really funny like that. I was like, oh, this would be a great joke. I don't know if they thought it was funny, but it was fun. Everybody else.

Lindsey: 00:29:14

I love that.

Milton Stewart: 00:29:14

I love that.

Creek: 00:29:15

All right. That was fun. So diving in a little bit more. Can you kind of outline for us, like, your. The brief story of how you find the. Landed on your type?

What was that like, that emotional experience?

Milton Stewart: 00:29:32

Oh, it felt trapping. No, but it pinned me. It pinned me. So this is how I. I was like, oh, this is me. So I was eating with a group of friends.

They brought out the wisdom of the Enneagram, did the two question test. Thankfully, I got my two letters right, so I didn't go down a spiral. You know, I'm like, who the hell am I? You know what I'm saying?

So I got mine, too, right? And they were reading the first two paragraphs, which are like, all the great things about your type, supposedly.

And I was like, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I know. That's me. You know, I'm in the room, like, yes, yes, yes. You know, all my friends are like, yeah, yeah, yeah.

And then the next two paragraphs, all the things about you that aren't so great that people may or may not know. And I was like, God. I was like, how they know what? And so at the time, externally, I'm looking cool, like, I don't know about this, y' all.

Some of this is missing. I don't know if it really is about me, but inside, internally, I'm like, oh, crap. Oh, crap. Oh, crap. This is way too accurate. It's creeping me out.

And so I said, now I'm interested because it pinned me. It was like, gotcha. And I was like, oh, no. Oh, no. So that made me curious.

And when I'm excited or curious about something, I go all into it really fast, really quickly. So I, at the time, got every book. There was literally one podcast out back then, but got every book that I could find on Enneagram and read it.

And then I went around mistyping people, basically. So that's how it's.

Lindsey: 00:31:03

Right. Of passage, rite of passage.

Milton Stewart: 00:31:05

All right. That's how it starts. It's like I'm trying to share with everybody. It's like, you're probably this because of Your behavior.

And it's like, no, I'm not sure, you know.

Creek: 00:31:13

So what was the one.

Lindsey: 00:31:14

What was the first Enneagram podcast?

Milton Stewart: 00:31:19

The first one I remember was the one with Suzanne Stabile and Ian Kron.

Abram: 00:31:26

Oh, right, right.

Milton Stewart: 00:31:27

That was the first one I remember ever being just out there because I was like, is this even a thing? And it was. I was like way back.

Creek: 00:31:34

Interesting. Okay. Wow. Did. Did you ever consider a different type? Like, what. What are the. What are those types that you've. Like, wait a second, am I right?

Milton Stewart: 00:31:48

I. I would say I considered 8 just because of the culture I grew up in. How you have to be externally to show up is like much tougher.

Have to be able to see a certain look, this type of thing. So I considered eight. Never consider one. I've always had a challenge with one in life.

That's been a growing point for me, which I don't have many challenges now. 9.

Creek: 00:32:14

You don't have any challenges now. Please enlighten.

Milton Stewart: 00:32:19

I. I have bypassed those.

Creek: 00:32:21

Thank you for clarifying. Moving on.

Milton Stewart: 00:32:28

Never the two. Three. I could see some of it to the competition piece because I am quite competitive, but I don't live or die by competition.

And I had to realize that, right? I was like, I don't live and die by competition. Like, I really want to win.

Like, I really, really like winning, but it's not a life or death, and my whole ego is based on me winning. And then four, definitely not at the time. Like, now I see more for me than I ever expected, but not at the time.

Five, I can go be a little reclusive, but I was like, that's not my primary thing. And then six, I would say it was like I. I flipped things to the positive so easily that I was like, yeah, this is not me. This is me.

Maybe secretly on a day where I'm freaking out with anxiety, but, like, this is not consistently my pattern.

Creek: 00:33:18

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Any nine ever?

Milton Stewart: 00:33:22

Just a little bit. It's. I just always felt my energy level was different because my energy could be so high. And I. I didn't really connect that to nine that much.

When I look at my internal experience now, externally, I have been told a couple of times that people have seen me have felt me as a nine, but a lot of times it's sometimes me holding back some of the energy because I know it could be a lot. And some of that self preservation stuff too. So.

Abram: 00:33:51

Yeah.

Lindsey: 00:33:52

So, Milton, I'm wondering what model you do a lot with the Enneagram. So for listeners who aren't familiar with you.

You are on the IEA board and Kaizen Careers, and we'll have lots of ways for them to find you in the show notes, and you can talk about that later. But what is the model or the approach of the Enneagram that you use now?

And tell us a little bit about who you've studied with and what models you've studied with.

Milton Stewart: 00:34:22

Oh, my. It's a bunch, I think. I love that part of me.

The sevenness in me has, I would say, wandered into a lot of different spaces with a lot of different teachers. And so I've picked up a lot of different models. And so I kind of adjust as needed with the audience.

But primary framework, I would say, is the comes from really Claudia Naranjo. But Beatrice Chestnut Urania wrote a book about it. Ginger Lapibagda, she's my original teacher. She's like.

She's my original OG teacher who I appreciate and has. Has helped groom me in a lot of healthy ways and challenged me.

I didn't go through the institute with Russ, but I've read a lot of Russ stuff, and I've been to Egypt with Russ, so I've picked up knowledge there. And I have been in a program with Russ. I've read some of Mario Socorro's books. I picked that up as well. Ata materials I have.

Marion Gilbert is a person more recently that I've been learning from the Somatic Enneagram. How do I work with what's here and process it? I've done a little narrative. I've done a little narrative. I've done some Jerry Wagner.

Didn't y' all kind of like Jerbear or something like that? Yes. Gosh.

Creek: 00:35:44

Or Dr. No. Dr. Jerry Wagner. Jerome Wagner, Ph.D. because he's like, I must have the. Those titles at all times.

Milton Stewart: 00:35:53

I. I love him. And his. His. His first book was probably my favorite. Probably his second book, actually.

But the Nine Lenses, like, he hit it with a psychological approach.

Abram: 00:36:04

Yeah.

Milton Stewart: 00:36:05

And I was like, dang, this is good. I come put the book down. So they're a big piece of my foundation. And also Dr. Deborah Egerton, she added in the piece of DEI and she calls it DIJ.

It's justice as well. So, like, those have been foundational, I guess I would say, to my Enneagram knowledge.

Abram: 00:36:27

Yeah. That is a lot. And I love that you have really consumed a lot of different perspectives out there.

I mean, that's kind of one of the things we're trying to do with this season that we're in is draw on the convergence of multiple voices.

I wanted to ask something that we've been asking all of our humans that we've been having on is getting at how you conceptualize yourself by asking you what five words you might use to describe yourself with.

Milton Stewart: 00:37:00

So I would say the first thing that actually came up was self actualization or self investigation. Another one. Another word I would say describes me is benevolence pops up is one of my core values.

Like, how do I give without anything necessarily, need anything back necessarily, because I'm supposed to, but because it's out of who I am. Right. So I would say benevolence is another word. And the third word I would say, I don't know. So I'm just gonna go. What comes up?

I would say self determination.

There's a part of me that is deeply determined in a lot of ways to grow, to be free, to be liberated, to even feel the pain of what I need to feel, to grow even more or to heal. There's a determination in me that, like, I think it's just innate in a sense that I cannot really put my finger on.

Like, oh, this is where it came from. Like, it feel like it just is, and it feel like it has been for me. Oh, word four, man, you hit me with the five. Oh, okay. Word four, you said.

Not type three, type stuff.

Creek: 00:38:20

Yeah.

Milton Stewart: 00:38:21

Okay. All right. Five. I would say. Well, I would say this one is growing. I would say this one is growing because I practice it every night now.

But I would say, I guess gracious or gratitude because there's a way that I've been cultivating in myself. How do I consistently be more grateful for everything that I have and everything that is a part of me? And the things.

Like, if I just think about all the ways I'm surrounded by just amazingness and I've been placed into amazing situations. Like, I just. Honestly, I have no ability to be nothing but grateful. When I think about the other one, I think about a lack of scarcity.

Like, oh, no, I don't have this. I don't have this much that I still got to pay for this. I got to do this. And it's like, scarcity, scarcity, scarcity, anxiety, freaking out.

But then I'm like, well, you know, so. I mean, that happens too, unfortunately. Ooh, that scarcity mindset is a mess, y' all. I can't stand it. But it'd be. I'm working through.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Um, so. And then the word that comes up is a blend of two words. But I'm just gonna. I would say reliable in the sense of like, a. A deep reliability.

Like, I feel like when it comes to. If someone had, like, a real issue, like a real deep problem, and something's really going wrong, something's gone crazy, and.

And it could be embarrassing, it could be normal. I feel like.

And I've heard this feedback, thankfully, from people I'm close to, that I would be there regardless of whatever happens, whatever they have to disclose, whatever they say, like, they. Like, I'll be there. And so the opposite is that I'm not there.

And I can see that show up in the sevenness, because I'm so many places and doing so much at times that it's not that I'm consciously aware that I'm not there, but part of me doesn't show up because I'm not fully present or I'm too scattered on things that may not be fully aligned with my deeper purpose. So. Hope that was good. Yeah, that's my five. You pushed me there.

Lindsey: 00:40:25

Ooh, that's awesome.

Abram: 00:40:26

You did it.

Lindsey: 00:40:27

Good job.

Creek: 00:40:33

So what do you think?

Lindsey: 00:40:35

I have a couple things coming up for me that I'm curious about. I'm trying to decide which one to. To go with first. I've heard Enneagram teachers actually teach that sevens are not reliable.

How do you feel about that? How does that hit you?

Milton Stewart: 00:40:54

Well, I would say years ago, it would be like, who they talking to? I know they ain't talking to me. Well, you know, the ego of the 7 probably isn't reliable. I'm Milton. You know, there's. There's a. There's a.

There's a difference. It's a part of me. Right. But it is not all of me.

And I think, because the way that, like I said, I've been surrounded by such amazing people and been taught those things, and I think because of certain inner work that I've done with myself, it's something. It's something about me. I recognize the importance of being reliable and there for people because I think that's probably what I truly long for.

Deep, deep, deep, deep, deep, deep, deep down, if I'm being totally honest, and I definitely have a fear that I won't receive that in a. In a sense or that I. You know, that's an existential. Existential almost thing for me that I am not supported, someone won't be there for me.

And so I have this. I don't know, this heavy focus of making sure that I am there for people who may truly need me.

Especially when it comes times where people like really, really need me. Not just that ego need me because, yeah, I won't show up for that a lot of times, but when somebody really, really needs me, I come through.

At least I feel I do. I come through and I'm still there and I can hold space for all the gobbledygook. Yeah.

When it seems that I wouldn't be able to based on being a seven or not reliable or having to flip their story to positive some reason, I can stand in the gap and be like, all right, this is really sad and tragic and Milton's here with you and we're going to figure out how to either sit with it for a while and what to do next, and then, you know, we can make moves to see what's going on next. So, you know, that's a little bit different than how I would say sevens are articulated naturally.

And that's why I would say that's probably dealt with some of my inner work and some of my, I guess, experiences personally, like you, you feel like.

Creek: 00:42:54

You'Ve had no other choice but to engage hardship. Like there's, there was no running for it from it. So you kind of had. You could.

Milton Stewart: 00:43:04

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. That, that's a, that's a part of it. Some things you, you literally cannot run from as much as you try.

And so I think that's built that muscle in me to really be there and so that I'm the person when somebody feels like they cannot talk to anyone else, like, and you know, you know how we are, like when we are the people who usually got it all together and it's, you know, for those people to have that space, I'm like, I got you and I. And I don't hold anything. I don't hold anything like, oh, remember that time? I don't, I don't, I don't, I don't do that. So. Yeah.

Abram: 00:43:40

Question I want to ask is, I think sometimes not all of our self concepts, but sometimes our self concepts get created out of a need to stay away from something threatening. What happens if you're unable to be self determined?

Milton Stewart: 00:43:57

Oh, what happens if I'm unable to be self determined? This is, yeah, this is great question.

This is the inner work piece and this is part where I have to learn and I'm still working on it to reach out to other people for more insight, for assistance, for help, for questioning, for the ability to hold space for me. So if I need to let go of something, if I Need to, you know, because that's the tricky part.

I would say being a head type, it's like when that, when you, when you run the tape and then you cannot figure it out with your mind or your mind is playing the trick. I mean, it's everybody.

But like, especially for a head type, when I've played out the whole tape and I've thought that I have thought through as much as I could, but I still know that there's something mentally that I cannot figure out. For some reason I'm like, I don't know what to do now. Like, what do I do? And I have to bring other people in.

And that's the part where that's my inner work. Like, how do I share more of me so that I can grow?

Because there's a part of our journeys, of each of our journeys that's all combined and collide together where you have to have someone else reflect back to you, parts of you, so that I have to do that. And so that is big work for me.

So, yeah, that is, I would say the biggest, one of my biggest challenges is through self determination, which is great in one sense.

There's points where it's not all about me and I have to share more of me so that I can continue to heal, then grow and whatever else that I'm supposed to do with sharing it to the world.

Creek: 00:45:36

So, yeah, I'm gonna push in on that a little bit more.

Milton Stewart: 00:45:43

We go deeper.

Creek: 00:45:48

What I'm hearing you say, I feel like that's. It feels like you're talking from Milton Stewart, the Enneagram teacher level.

And I'm curious, in those moments where regardless of how much determination you feel, no determination is going to solve the issue. How does that make you feel? What, what are the crises that arise during that. Those moments?

Milton Stewart: 00:46:21

Really good question. So I would say it's a deep sadness. That's what comes from that. Because you said, you said the word feel.

I would say it's a deep sadness and a huge loss of control. And it goes, it goes beyond that into the existential type question. Then, then it start exploring those and it's like, oh, here we go.

There's no direct answer for these questions, but I'm asking them anyway. So, so, so I think it goes to a piece of first sadness and then if I'm able to work through it, into acceptance to a degree of. For now. Right.

Because it's like, it's like either I'm missing a piece of this puzzle, somebody else got the piece of the puzzle. Maybe I don't get this piece of the puzzle or whatever it may be. It's like, okay, well we have to be with that.

Oh, okay, we go, we gonna sit with that, I'll come back later. And I'm gonna still try to probably figure it out or do something with it. And maybe I can, maybe I can't.

But I would say there's a deep sadness to it and then there has to to me comes an acceptance. And then, you know, I guess part of rationalizing sometimes and maybe not. But what can I learn from this? Like, what lesson comes from this?

Creek: 00:47:48

The, the stereotype, right, is sevens avoid sadness at all costs. Maybe they don't even feel sadness, they just immediately try to flip it is what does sadness feel like? How do you respond to sadness?

Milton Stewart: 00:48:09

How do I respond to sadness at this point now? Very differently than I did years ago, let's be honest.

Creek: 00:48:17

Can you paint that spectrum for us?

Milton Stewart: 00:48:19

For sure, back in the day. So the defense mechanism for those who may be listening, you know, for the seven is rationalization. But basically what that means is I've.

You flip everything to the positive to a degree. You make it positive, whatever it is, you have to flip it. It's like I gotta change it.

I have to manipulate this so that I feel better in this situation to a degree. So in the past I would do that unconsciously.

I didn't know that it was such a defense, like the defense like until you catch it like, like in the, in, in real time, that thing be operating so well, you don't even know it's, it's happening. I was like, God dang, you know, like flip it just quick as I'm just like, oh, okay, I'm fine, I'm kind.

And when I recognized it, because I say as a kid I would flip things quite a bit, but I had quite a few sad moments. People just, it just never would be in front of people. That's the thing. People just never would see it. I had very sad moments. Like very sad.

Like, I mean, here's the thing.

It's like the trauma and things I've been through, like, I don't know if you have to put a warning out here, but it's like it was suicide level type of thinking to a degree at times, right?

Never any like actions towards necessarily, but I had thoughts like it was some really sad moments and not knowing what to do with sadness when I actually felt it, because I did not allow that emotion, my ego didn't allow that emotion to come through on a regular Basis. So I knew, like, oh, okay, this will leave me in a second. But I got to sit with it and be with it. Right. So I would say that was part of the.

The younger version of me. Whenever I encountered some sadness, I could not flip into the positive because some things you just. You aren't able to. It's like. It's like, nope.

That defense mechanism you have a rationalization is broke right now because you cannot flip this. It's just too sad. It's just too tragic. It's tragic, it's sad. Whatever you want to call it. But it's grief, right? It's.

I would say that's how in the past, it's trying to flip it. And then if not flipping it, then it's like, okay, how do I deal with this?

So it's like, okay, now I need to go get me mentally stimulated so I don't have to deal with sadness. That's how I would deal with it. Right.

And that's how, as the ego is a seven, how you can be really addicted to any different thing you want to call addiction. Because it's like, I got to get up out of this. I feel trapped. Right.

And I would say on my path of growing, I've just had moments where I recognize that the sadness the grief once sat with is actually transmuted and transformed into something that is actually beautiful. That helps heal me.

It helps me love myself more, which helps me love other people more, which helps me to create space more and hold space for other people more. So I would say now when I encounter sadness, I'd be like, oh, okay. So I breathe, and I'll be with it. I mean, like, I.

I probably have watery eyes or cry, like, you know, a little bit of tear or two, probably once a day, probably depending on something. Yeah. Because I'm allowing it to show up now. And it's like, we got a lot to go. Yeah. It's like, oh, here we go. It's back. But.

Lindsey: 00:51:22

But.

Milton Stewart: 00:51:22

Yeah. So I would say I sit with it and breathe now. Yeah.

Abram: 00:51:25

I want to ask in response to that, because I. I know early. The. An early seven mind might experience sadness as something that could be trapping. Right.

Something that could be constraining something. You. You might. But how has. How have you experienced that actually giving you more freedom, not less?

Milton Stewart: 00:51:47

It's like you recognize that you. The. The trapping of the seven. My goodness. Like the sadness.

Feeling like believing that the sadness was a trap leaves you with only few options of what to do.

You just react in the same way you always do, and you go to whatever your favorite stimuli is, and you go there and it's not replenishing, it's not helpful. It doesn't build or other people around you, just burns you out no matter what it is.

And so now that I realize that, like, literally sitting with it, allowing it to move through you, addressing it, being curious about, gives me actually, it gives me true options on how to. What I can do. And I don't have to go towards just like the favored stimuli that my neural pathways have attached themselves to. I can go to.

Oh, there's multiple options here that can actually address and not avoid it or not deal with it. But, like, maybe I can heal it, grow from it, it can change, do something in me. Or, you know, I'd have options.

Like, I have real freedom and not a fake version of freedom.

Lindsey: 00:52:59

Freedom. Again, I'm torn because I really want to stay here. Have questions here.

I'm really curious about the internal monologue or maybe the narrative that's going on for you.

What do you notice that you are saying to yourself about yourself in those moments where you're talking about sadness and grief or the lack of being able to, you know, what were we saying? Self determination, I think was the way you put it. Yeah, I'm just really curious about what you notice the narrative being there.

Milton Stewart: 00:53:46

It's quite a few narratives, which is a good question, I think. Formerly growing up, growing up in the neighborhoods, I grew up as a black male, there was a narrative that the cold, crying thing was weak.

It's a natural thing. In the western side, it is male anyway, which sucks that that's the case. But blackmail, that also flavored it as well. So it's like, oh, you're weak.

Blah, blah. So that was a narrative.

I formally had the sadness narrative now, I mean, I would say even after that piece where I got through that piece where, like, I'm human, I got tear ducts for a reason. When I get past that piece into the heavier seven piece of myself, it was more like making it comical. Like, damn, I can't believe I'm sad right now.

What the hell is going on? Right? You know, it's like that type of piece where I am approaching sadness, but I'm still not fully there.

My ego is still playing with it because it's like, we ain't really trying to jump in this, right? This is crazy. But now I've come to a place where every once in a while, the ego still does this thing.

Makes me laugh in the sadness and Be like, oh, I'm sad. But now it's kind of like I'm just doing my best to be present, I guess I would say with it and it is not the prettiest thing. Like my goodness.

I would say the first time I. What is it? What am I saying? Like what kind of crying is that? I mean like it's a hard cry.

Lindsey: 00:55:10

Like ugly cry, ugly cry, ugly cry.

Milton Stewart: 00:55:14

, I was at the IEA Conference: 2019

So I was like. And I was like, oh my gosh. And I was like, I'm so ugly right now, but I'm so sad. But I'm like, it was just weird.

But since then I am a much better crier.

Lindsey: 00:55:43

You're a pretty crier.

Milton Stewart: 00:55:46

Probably not pretty, but I. But I look better. Yeah, I look better.

Creek: 00:55:51

Good for on screen. On screen crying.

Milton Stewart: 00:55:53

Right? Right. It's like, it's like, oh, he could do a movie because the other one that's like a horror film. So we don't know.

But that, that's the internal dialogue now is I just, I just try to get really, really curious. Really curious. Like asking, asking a question even in different ways.

Because sometimes, you know, the quality of the question depends on the quality of the answer you get. Yeah.

Abram: 00:56:20

Kind of a follow up question around the same area I want to ask is, you know, as I think defense mechanisms are primarily. What's the word I'm looking for. They come into play when our self concept is threatened.

And so sadness is something you've been allowing in to be a part of who you realize you are or have access to. Are there other emotions that you are a lot have are learning to or have learned how to allow in as a part of your self concept.

Milton Stewart: 00:56:52

That's a good one. So another one, big one. Because I mean it's a gambit of them.

I have an emotion wheel I've been working with because y' all like I was looking, I was like what are these things called emotion? I'm looking like oh my gosh. Right. But I would say the biggest one honestly has been anger because. And I didn't even know this, y' all.

I didn't even know this. Like I had multiple teachers, big enneagram teachers tell me I had anger problem. And I was so confused. I Was like, I do not have an anger problem.

I don't flip my lid and go throwing stuff and, you know, cursing people out and all this stuff. And it was like. They both were like, no, you have an anger problem because you're not in touch with your anger.

So you don't defend and stand up for yourself or protect yourself. Like, you need. I was like, oh, damn, don't say that. And then they did it. Two different teachers from two different.

Totally different, like, retreat things I went to. And I was like, God dang it. They. Right, because you know what I'm saying? And I started to look back through my life and I was like, oh, crap.

I think they. Right, they on to something.

So anger has been one that I have allowed in to where it's a healthy anger, where I have a healthy relationship with my anger, and it's a constant work. But, you know, actually allowing it to show up when it should show up. I'm like, yeah, it's fine. It's okay. It's, you know.

So I think that's a big part of it. Me one thing growing up, like, once again, as a black male, not trying to be the angry black male in places like.

So if I am frustrated, I would push it down. Like, no, I'm not gonna do that. Because if I show up and I'm frustrated automatically, I might get shut down in this room. So I'm just gonna.

Let's gonna keep it down or whatever. And it was like I was talking with a good friend. I'm glad you asked this question. One of my colleagues I work with at this chemical company.

We do in your grand work with Dow Chemical. And we were talking and I said, I just come to a point, I said. And I started crying. We were out eating.

Like, I'm always eating when I have these emotional things. I don't know what's happening. But me and food job, me and food, it's a good hack. And. And I.

Lindsey: 00:58:57

Maybe you're a gut type, right?

Milton Stewart: 00:59:01

My colleague asked the question and she said. She said something and I said. I looked at her and I started like, crying. I said, tearing up, really.

I said, I'd be damned if I let someone take my anger.

Lindsey: 00:59:12

Yes.

Milton Stewart: 00:59:13

Because I was like, that's a part of me. It's an important part of me. And I was like, wow. I'm sure. I was shocked that I. That came out of me feeling. I was like, I'm eating food.

Why is this happening now? But, you know, it's just where we were and what we was doing.

So, yeah, that's another part of me that I have definitely worked on integrating because it's so important. Like, gosh. Oof.

Creek: 00:59:37

Also just noting, this is one of the more somber episodes we've had with a human, and it's with the seven, which is beautiful to me.

Lindsey: 00:59:48

Take that any land.

Creek: 00:59:50

Yeah.

Lindsey: 00:59:51

Just busting yourself, your stereotypes.

Abram: 00:59:58

This is the point of what we're trying to do.

Creek: 01:00:01

Yeah.

Well, I don't think people realize how concerned they are with making sure everyone else is happy, because if everyone else is happy, that means I can maintain my happiness. And there's some similarities to nine, but there's a more what I've noticed a little bit more of a.

I guess a different type of avoidance with conflict, with holding boundaries. Those sort of things is like I'm just going to give in to make them happy so they'll go away and I can continue being happy and excited.

And that constant removal of self and doing something else like depression, suicide, I think is a lot more rampant in sevens than we think, for sure, because they. It's against who they see themselves as. So it's a constant pivot of.

Milton Stewart: 01:01:01

Yeah.

Creek: 01:01:01

Of the. Of the mind. So there was going to be a question, but I don't remember what. I was just trying to talk until the question came, but it. Yeah, it's not.

It's not here. So.

Lindsey: 01:01:12

Good stuff along the way, though.

Creek: 01:01:14

Yeah, cool. Milton, what's.

What's one caution that you'd give to other sevens or just people that are listening, something that you've had to learn the hard way that you think living with this perspective has given you?

Milton Stewart: 01:01:32

Man, that's a.

That's a question, a caution, I would say, to maybe recognize that just about all type structures I've built on the avoidance of whatever seems like the opposite. And so because as a seven, we show up so happy and positive all the time, in actuality, we have a lot of depth and sadness and pain that we do.

If we slow down enough, we recognize it's there and that we feel that. And so there's a constant urge to not feel that, but to not be little anytime.

I guess a seven, a person with a seven, like pattern has like pain or crying or even just a little bit because it's probably a lot there.

And they probably don't feel that other people have the space for when they have to show up with sadness because it feels like it's their job, quote unquote, their ego's job to make everyone else happy. So like them recognizing something's going on deeper is. Is important work.

So even if it's a small moment or a big moment, just if you could hold space for them, it'd actually be very beneficial for them. But, yeah, so I think that's maybe how I would answer that one. A caution. I got some.

Creek: 01:03:03

What I'm hearing, what I'm hearing is like the thing that you've learned that it's worth. Don't rush past the hard stuff. It's worth slowing down and it's going to give you more freedom.

Milton Stewart: 01:03:17

Yeah. Love how you frame that. It's true. The slowing down piece is crazy. I battle with slowing. I battle with slowing down on a daily basis. It's wild.

y and we got to get it out at: 0800

My heart's beating fast. I'm chopping food fast. I'm flipping this, I'm doing that like. And I'm like, bro, breathe first.

Lindsey: 01:03:55

And then.

Milton Stewart: 01:03:56

So, yeah, you know, this constant slowing down of like really trying to shift the way that my man. Honestly, my neural pathways operate, especially in this area of slowing down. Because all the fun stuff comes up when you slow down.

Lindsey: 01:04:13

Also, I bet these guys could give you some good music to play while you're cooking. They'll help you slow down.

Milton Stewart: 01:04:21

It's probably very true. Yes.

Lindsey: 01:04:24

I'm wondering what is an action or a habit that's changed how you approach life.

Milton Stewart: 01:04:31

Oh, so one thing I do, there's been so many. So first of all, I. So one of them I think of. I thought about several things at once. I'm glad you asked that. So this, this the whole self pres.

Being a part of my sevenness type of thing, it just loves when a practical, pragmatic question gets asked because it's like, I got 30. It's like, don't give them 30. Yeah. All right. So one of the most transformational things that I did was when I.

Before I was going to work, when I worked in education, I would breathe in and down, in and down, in and down. The whole ride there. Like, I'm focused on breathing the whole ride. That took about probably like a 30 minute ride.

And I would notice it would take me 15 to 20 minutes for my body to fully release before it was finally like, oh, we're okay. And let me tell you how I'm gonna say this. Because I'm just. I'm just gonna be. I am who I am, and that is enough. That's my. One of my.

That's one of my affirmations at night, by the way. This is how I know my body would relax. It's gonna sound crazy. So I don't know.

You're welcome to edit this out if you want to, but my sphincter relax sounds crazy.

Lindsey: 01:05:40

That's real. That's real.

Milton Stewart: 01:05:44

And I was like, oh. Like, I didn't even know. I didn't even know. I didn't know. I'm like, I'm on tight like that.

And then I was like, oh, but would that allow just affirming you because. Thank you.

Lindsey: 01:05:55

It's not weird.

Milton Stewart: 01:05:57

Thank you.

It let me know that, like, I have been operating with a tightness, a constriction in my body, a contraction in my body for so long that I don't even know what it is like to relax on a regular basis. And I was like, oh, crap. So that was one thing that changed my whole mind. And then something else that I do that I offer any and everybody to do.

If you don't have a gratitude, practice is to find one to do it. But every night I go through. I am grateful for, blah, blah, blah. And I just go through my day things that I'm grateful for.

And it has changed the way that I have been operating and seeing the world to a degree. So those are two practices I would say that I do that have changed my life. I also do meditation on a regular basis now. So. What?

Daily, as best as possible. But yeah, those are. I'm gonna keep it there. Keep it.

Creek: 01:06:51

There's lots of practices for sure.

Milton Stewart: 01:06:54

Yes.

Abram: 01:06:55

Well, I hate to bring this to a close because it's. I really enjoyed this conversation with you, man. There's a bunch of things you said that I just really valued.

Especially just like tyou said, I'll be damned if I allow people to keep taking away my anger. That perspective is really beautiful, especially as a.

As a nine, you know, someone who has really wrestled to come into relationship with anger myself because it was so dangerous for so long for me. Yeah, just thank you, man. First off.

But just also just say, man, we really value so much you showing us first your humanness and your vulnerability and how you uniquely contextualize sevenness. That's really been the point of having you on. And you did it beautifully. And, man, it was, as Greg said, it was one of our more solemn episodes.

It's really cool. I just really appreciate you going there with us, it was a fun ride. And sharing the fun ways that you personally relax.

Lindsey: 01:08:05

That's going to be our audiogram for Instagram.

Abram: 01:08:08

Yeah, yeah.

Maria Jose: 01:08:09

For.

Abram: 01:08:10

For. For our listeners, though, could you share with them what are the ways in which they can discover you?

Milton Stewart: 01:08:17

Yes.

Creek: 01:08:18

As a person, as a. As a existential being, how do they discover you? Okay, sorry.

Milton Stewart: 01:08:24

Well, first they have to move into the seventh chakra. No. All right. So you can. You can connect and find me@kaizencareers.com K A I Z E N C A R EE E R S dot com. That's one of the ways you can find me.

Have upcoming events. I absolutely love to travel for transformation, as I'm calling it. This has literally been a brainchild.

I'm just sharing it with you all first, to be honest. But I.

I love the idea of when people travel and they do retreats or they do getaways for transformation, because there's something about being in a whole different space and having it facilitated that people can truly grow. So I'm a big proponent of that. So I'm a co facilitator of the big Enneagram retreat. So we have a couple coming up.

If you are into retreats and transformation, check us out. And then I also have a podcast called do it for the Gram and Enneagram Podcast. Have I dropped an episode lately? No, I have not.

But I feel like what's happening is something that's being produced. There's. There's time. There's. There's something that is growing and it's juicy. So. So that's going to take.

Lindsey: 01:09:38

Let him cook.

Milton Stewart: 01:09:39

But.

Creek: 01:09:41

So he can eat and then he can cry.

Milton Stewart: 01:09:46

There's. There's a. Okay. I was gonna say, have you listened to Glorilla's last album? But anyway. Because that's the sort of song Let it Cook. But anyway.

Yeah, so. So those are the biggest ways that you can reach me. If you go to one of those two, you can definitely reach me and find me.

Creek: 01:10:05

Amazing. Thanks so much, Milton. Really appreciate it.

Milton Stewart: 01:10:08

Thank you. This is great. Type talk movie. Talk about the type.

Abram: 01:10:19

Yeah, that's was. That was another one that we've done. We did that thing we'd usually do with the.

The thing after we finished the conversation with that person that was in that place of the type.

Lindsey: 01:10:32

Gets better every time.

Abram: 01:10:34

There it is. There it is.

Creek: 01:10:35

I think it gets longer every time.

Lindsey: 01:10:37

It gets longer and better every time.

Creek: 01:10:39

These nonsense intros are getting a little out of hand. What do you guys think?

Lindsey: 01:10:46

What do you think? Well, for me, I really appreciated how Ata highlighted the complicated relationship of spending time alone for a 7. I felt that deep in my soul.

Creek: 01:11:04

Say more.

Lindsey: 01:11:05

Well, there's a. I feel like there is at times. Not always. Sometimes there's a deep craving for alone time, but there can be a resistance to spending time alone.

And then it's sort of.

I feel like it's like that Atari game where, like, the ping pong ball just keeps bouncing back and forth, where it's like, well, I don't want to be alone. I'd rather be with people, but if I'm alone, suddenly have a list of a million things I could do by myself when I'm alone.

So then I'll get excited about the list of things that I can do when I'm alone, but then I'm never gonna get to all those things because the list is inflated and I don't have time to do all those things, and I have trouble paring it down.

So then after my alone time, not only do I sometimes feel, like, disappointed because I didn't hit everything on the list, but then I'm also still kind of like. I feel like I didn't really tap into that recharging nature of what being alone is supposed to be like in the first place.

Creek: 01:12:10

Interesting.

Lindsey: 01:12:11

So it's necessary and complicated and weird for me.

Creek: 01:12:15

And for those that may just be joining us for this episode. You've switched types from 2 to 7.

Lindsey: 01:12:22

Do we switch types, really?

Abram: 01:12:24

I mean, well, you're awakened.

Creek: 01:12:27

You re identified your pattern.

Lindsey: 01:12:31

Yes.

Creek: 01:12:32

That makes more sense for your story.

Lindsey: 01:12:34

Yeah.

Creek: 01:12:35

So definitely go back and listen to Lindsey's Not a Do. It's a great title. I like the title. It's great. Was that a Lee Fields thing?

Lindsey: 01:12:44

I think so.

Creek: 01:12:45

I think it was. Yeah. Yeah, Lee. Just all the great ideas.

Abram: 01:12:49

We love Lee. I remember it actually being my idea. I'm just going to speak up for myself here, but maybe it was Lee.

Lindsey: 01:12:56

Was it your idea?

Abram: 01:12:57

Let go of it real quick, though. I let go of that real quick. I think it was my idea. No.

Creek: 01:13:04

It could have been there.

Abram: 01:13:05

Jeez.

Lindsey: 01:13:06

No. Was it?

Abram: 01:13:08

I think I remember, but then again.

Lindsey: 01:13:11

I trust your memory.

Abram: 01:13:12

No, I think it was my idea.

Lindsey: 01:13:14

Well done. It's a great fight.

Creek: 01:13:17

We can fact check this, but we'll.

Lindsey: 01:13:20

Have to go back through the text.

Abram: 01:13:21

I think I remember saying, I think we should be real direct and clear in the title.

Creek: 01:13:26

I think it was a collaboration.

Lindsey: 01:13:28

I think you're right. I think it was him.

Creek: 01:13:31

I think. But I think Lee brought Up the not a four trend. And then we worked off of that. But.

Abram: 01:13:38

But the title came from me.

Lindsey: 01:13:40

Yes. Right. Yes.

Creek: 01:13:43

Okay.

Abram: 01:13:44

Yeah, yeah.

Creek: 01:13:44

Moving on. This is not the important context.

Lindsey: 01:13:47

I just love watching the war you're having with yourself right now over how much space to take up around this stuff.

Abram: 01:13:54

Can't trust myself.

Creek: 01:13:56

All right, so, Lindsay.

Milton Stewart: 01:13:58

Yeah.

Creek: 01:13:59

You're a seven. So we're gonna be talking a little bit to Lindsay about her experience. You know, it's only been, what, like, four months, five months?

Lindsey: 01:14:06

Yeah, something like that.

Creek: 01:14:08

Something like that, yeah. Okay, so a freshly minted seven. That alone time, I think, is something that really confuses people. People. And I.

I don't think it's talked about very often, I think.

I mean, I think narrative did talk about, like, there can be introverted and extroverted sevens, but I think all sevens, like, need some recharge time.

Lindsey: 01:14:31

Yeah.

Creek: 01:14:32

I mean, and.

Abram: 01:14:33

Because they're a person first. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah.

Creek: 01:14:37

Yeah.

Milton Stewart: 01:14:37

And.

Creek: 01:14:37

And different people need different types of recharge and different amounts and all that other stuff. But I. Yeah, I think it. People have this idea of their energizer bunnies and don't need, you know, proper refueling, and that's just not the case, so.

Abram: 01:14:53

Right.

Creek: 01:14:54

Stop it. Yeah. Anything else, Abram?

Abram: 01:14:57

I mean, I just. I was thinking about the similarities and maybe some of the differences here. I heard the same word optimism, used a lot from all three schools.

I think enthusiasm, just this sort of, I don't know, upbeat, energetic nature and love for life was similarly expressed from all three schools. I remember that ATA really emphasized excitement and options as motivators. Yeah. I think the institute was, you know, they. They were gay.

Was bringing in the basic fear and the basic desire. That's key. That's unique to the institute, which. Which is kind of a different motivator as well.

So focusing more so on emotional pain, being trapped in emotional pain as the basic fear and that which also produces, I believe, the basic desire to, you know, be free and not limited. But actually limitation was more so where the narrative was speaking from.

So kind of a talking about it, refusing or rejecting, I should say limitation. And I thought it interesting, too.

They were the only ones that talked about kind of refusing, like, pushing back, even on authority, you know, because that could get in the way of what I want.

Creek: 01:16:29

Yeah, that was interesting. I see that. I mean, typically, we think of that more as like, six or eight or, I guess even four. I don't know, Lindsay, do you. What do you.

How do you feel about that? How does that relate to you or not.

Lindsey: 01:16:45

I don't. I can see it happening for me in covert ways, not in really visible ways.

It more happens like I'm gonna make you really happy with me and proud of me. And then if you're someone who's in authority over me, then you'll give me more freedom to do what I want.

Because now I've shown you, you know, it feels like that hard line to one where I'm gonna be the good girl and I'm going to show you that I'm trustworthy and full of integrity. And then you will leave me alone and give me the space that I need to do the things I want to do.

So I can see this in different situations I've been in with leadership. I can also see it growing up as a kid, having parents and the ways that that played out. But I see that.

I just think that it's very veiled behind that line to one. Does that make sense?

Abram: 01:17:49

I think so. Like, I'm gonna adhere to the rules so that you don't limit me.

Lindsey: 01:17:53

Yeah. It's not a. You're getting in my way, so I'm gonna break the rules. That's. I don't feel like that's very 7ish at all.

Creek: 01:18:06

I'm sure it happens. I'm sure different people find their ways around that reasoning, I think.

But I think there's again, there's kind of a stereotype of they are the party person. But I think we don't. We don't see enough that sort of innocent good boy, good girl choir kid.

Because if I'm able to avoid criticism, then I'm able to avoid the pain of that. So like there's some with. With some sevens.

I do experience like this attempt to remain innocent in order to be able to in some ways get away with some things. If I appear a little bit more childlike, then I don't have to bear as much responsibility.

Abram: 01:18:55

Yeah. I've had the.

A similar experience with people that are from a different culture and they move here, but they've been here for quite a while and still kind of use. I'm from a different place and I don't get it. Even though they've been here for, you know, 20 years and. Well, that's. That's an excuse at this point.

You do understand the culture you live in. Yeah, it's, you know, it feels similar to a way to stay innocent. Like you were saying Greek to kind of get away with something.

Lindsey: 01:19:25

Yeah.

Especially if there's something that they're more excited about doing, and they sense that there's somebody who's willing to do this boring thing that they don't want to deal with. Then it's like, well, I need to be taken care of in this way, and I don't know how to do this.

So help me out here with this, and then I can be, like, onto this other thing I'd rather do.

Creek: 01:19:52

You know, you said they do.

Milton Stewart: 01:19:54

You mean you.

Lindsey: 01:19:55

I don't do this personally, but I think probably every other seven but me does this.

Creek: 01:20:01

Probably.

Lindsey: 01:20:02

No, I. I.

Sometimes I feel like we should have my mom on the show because she's got so many stories, but she, as an adult, I'll say things like, mom, why didn't you teach me how to, like, do more things in the kitchen and cook better? And she's like, I tried. I would literally be like, cut these potatoes, and I would turn around, and you would be gone.

Like, you just didn't want to do it. You didn't want to be in the kitchen. You weren't going to do that. And as an adult, you know, in my.

In my marriage especially, like, the parts, I am more than happy to divide the labor around the things I don't enjoy, like, yes, please take those things. I do not want to deal with sitting down and balancing a budget, you know, no, thanks. So.

And that I do think that that is a point of growth that sevens really have to lean into because it causes so much frustration for people. It really is frustrating to feel like you're not in a.

On a team with a seven who's pulling their own weight and willing to work harder at something because they just don't like it. Like, that is a point of, well, grow up. We have to do things we don't like.

Creek: 01:21:27

Yeah. In some ways, we're talking mistypings here for a second. Three's kind of avoiding failure.

I see sevens avoiding unpleasantness, which can come in the form of failure. Either reframing it to make it not their fault or just moving on to a different project as if the other one didn't exist.

And I think, well, Gail said something along the lines of getting trapped in the quicksands of negativity or something like that.

And I'm curious, Lindsay, how you feel about, I guess, negativity or failure or that sort of thing, Because I've also heard from sevens of if they can reframe negativity as, like, this new thing I'm exploring, it can become stimulating or exciting in some way because it's something new.

Lindsey: 01:22:26

I Mean, I'm sure that I do that. I'm sure that I'm constantly reframing in ways I'm not even aware of.

What I can say in response to your question is I do get very, very frustrated at negativity, and I have to work to give adequate space to when there's genuinely something that's just negative that I don't. I don't want to look at and I don't want to talk about. I'm frustrated and annoyed in another person that they're not rebounding quickly.

Like, let's find a different solution. Let's keep this thing moving forward. And you're really slowing us down by lingering so long here in this negativity.

I get frustrated with that, but I think that I. Especially with people I care about, I'll make more space for them to have their authentic emotions.

But also, I think the failure piece for me, I see more as what we were kind of talking about. Abram, you mentioned Gail talking about, like, future planning to avoid being trapped in pain. For me, that's.

That's where the charge is around failure. It's like an. And. And a reframe. It's like, well, this. If I do this well, I think I've even said it this way to you guys before.

Like, I really want to do this suffering thing, this thing I'm suffering through. I want to do it right. I want to do it well.

Because there's this idea that if I learn the thing I need to learn now, I won't have to do this again in the future. And so that's where I'll put the energy is let's go all the way to the bottom with this thing.

Let's mine it for everything that it has to teach me and show me. Because not only is that going to help me become more the person that I want to be, which excites me.

The opportunity to become more the person that I want to be, the character I want to build, is an exciting endeavor for me.

But also, I see it as this moment, this season, growing through it, learning from it, is going to insulate me from future suffering, which is completely false, I realize. But, you know, that's the unconscious, I think, drive there for me, at least maybe someone else would say it different.

I see this in relationships a lot.

If I'm in a conflict and we're working through something, a lot of times I can recall myself saying, okay, so if this happens again, what are we going to do about it? Right? Like, if you hear me say this. How are you going to respond if I hear you say this? Can I respond this way? And it's like I'm.

I am preparing in the future for this conflict to happen again. Again. But how can we do it less? Because painfully, next time?

Abram: 01:25:15

Are you saying that is a valuable skill set to have when you're in conflict, or is that something that's distracting from actually dealing with?

Lindsey: 01:25:23

I think it can be valuable. I've also experienced myself doing it from a place of high anxiety, just deeply, deeply afraid that this connection is going to be lost.

And so, like, I will not give the relationship the breathing room that it needs to just have its flaws and bugs, because it's like I want to perfect it so that we can just enjoy the relationship instead of experiencing suffering between us.

Abram: 01:25:52

This kind of reminds me of something I have experienced from sevens as well, in that there is a. You know, these words have been used a lot for sevens, a threat forecasting, even just for five, sixes and sevens.

But the idea of trying to figure something out before it potentially happens, it's predicting the thing, but it's for the sake, at least for seven, of not getting trapped in something that I'm stuck in right now. And maybe that's exactly what you're saying, but it is what has become problematic.

What becomes problematic for me in those scenarios is it's like you're trying to cause me to deal with this future thing that isn't happening right now, but you're bringing the future to right here. Actually.

Creek: 01:26:44

I think that speaks to just that idealism that we often see in Ones and Sevens, where it's, I need this to be this way because. Because if it's not, then, yeah, that's just gonna. It's gonna take away from my enjoyment of life. And so I need this thing to go this way. So I.

Sevens. I've seen some sevens become a bit controlling sometimes, because if it doesn't go this way, I don't know how to deal with that.

Abram: 01:27:24

Yeah, that's interesting because it's a control. It can be either way, controlling through positivity or negativity, but trying to manage a future moment.

Lindsey: 01:27:33

Yeah.

I was talking with our friend Jeff Cook from the around the Circle podcast a couple weeks ago, and I was talking about sevenness and the need for stability and security, and he was surprised by that, like using those words in relationship to seven.

And I do think that people underestimate the amount of stability and security that sevens try to acquire for themselves doing this exact thing, future planning. And also not planning it too concretely because there is something about having my options open that gives me a sense of control, instability.

The flip side of that coin is that not making decisions and not being decisive about things can backfire and actually contribute to a lot of destabilization either logistically, just in your planning, in your life, relationally, what have you. So there's that, there's that weird tension around. I'm doing this thing to try to feel stable.

It's backfiring on me and now I'm having to manage a lot of chaos that I could have avoided.

Abram: 01:28:57

Right.

Creek: 01:28:58

It's making me think of how different that's going to be. It's going to look and feel based on the subtype. Yeah, of course, like self preservation or preserving sevens are probably going to have. Yeah.

Security and stability is going to be a lot more important to them. And in some ways security and stability is the exciting thing. So it.

Yeah, I think again, going back to the stereotype of this person that just hops from here to here to here to here to here. I think in some ways, I guess we have to define stability because stability is also consistent.

And in some ways if you're just consistently on the move, that's a form of stability. You never have to feel trapped in one location with one thing going on. So I don't know, I'm just kind of throwing some stuff out there.

Abram: 01:29:58

Yeah, yeah. I feel like we could go in two directions at least maybe more than that.

But I was just hearing, you know, if you're moving from one thing to the one thing to one thing that is giving us some sense of stability. That is why I feel like that's why a lot of people have the stereotype that all sevens are shallow.

Now if that's like your, if you're overusing that skill set of being able to think into the future to player plan better, you know, positively, then yeah, if your life is full of that, then maybe you are a kind of seven that has some lack of depth. But that doesn't mean all sevens are that way at all.

But I was just thinking about backtracking briefly in the way Lindsay, you were talking about how the exact way that you were trying to not allow the thing you're afraid of is the exact thing that causes the thing that you don't want.

And I was thinking about how that sometimes that what that brings up for me is this quality that I've heard about sevens being more self referencing than. Than other types. Whereas say, you know, for example, in, in Comparison twos and nines are more other referencing than other types.

I'm curious what comes up for you in that, because I think self referencing can be a way to, you know, I'm. I'm the one that has control of how this moment feels safe for me because I'm not here. I'm the future.

Lindsey: 01:31:26

I was just talking with Stephanie Spencer about this a few weeks ago, and the way it came up is she was telling me something about what was going on with her, and when I responded, it was a story about me. And I stopped. And I was just like, can we unpack this for a second? Because I want to make sure that this feels okay to you. I'm. Here's what I'm doing.

I'm actually trying to relate to you by showing you that I understand. And the way that I know how to do that is referencing my own experience. That is being recalled as you're talking about your experience.

But for you, it could feel like I'm just hijacking the conversation and I'm not letting your moment breathe. And I've said that phrase so many times. What's up with that? I'm not letting this space between us be centered on you long enough.

And so that's something that I try to be aware of. But she responded that she actually felt seen in that moment.

She did feel related to, and it wasn't like, oh, Lindsay, why are you just, like, stealing the spotlight?

So I do want to be careful of that, while at the same time realizing that that self referencing can be a way of showing people that you're relating to them. You're meeting them exactly where they are with your own experience to share vulnerably and just holding some sensitivity around.

It might not be the moment for you to share the story about what you experienced, but it might contribute to relating between the two of you. I'm not sure if I mean, answering your question, but.

Abram: 01:33:07

No. No, I think so.

And I wonder if sometimes that self referencing maybe in a negative way might come up more so around conversations with people where what you're talking about is uncomfortable for me. And so I'm going to insert.

Creek: 01:33:19

Yeah.

Lindsey: 01:33:19

Myself.

Abram: 01:33:21

Yeah, yeah.

Lindsey: 01:33:23

Kind of control the. The vibes a little bit. Shift the vibes.

Abram: 01:33:28

This isn't. This isn't positive enough.

Lindsey: 01:33:30

Yeah.

Abram: 01:33:30

I got to do something.

Lindsey: 01:33:32

Yeah.

Abram: 01:33:33

Zippity doo dah.

Creek: 01:33:34

So something I noticed, like, with Milton and all sevens. And again, Lindsay would love to hear your take on this. This idea of resilience.

I think there's, of course, there's positive versions of this and then, you know, negative versions of this. But I don't even know how to ask this question. I mean obvi. Sevens just tend to bounce back really fast and it.

Sometimes I've had to check myself because like I tend to wallow for a long time. But I also know sevens tend to jump out of things before they are ready or before they should.

So trying to find like that, that happy medium of sorts.

So I guess two parter question of what's going on in, in your brain that allows you to get over things quicker and how do you know when you've stayed in something long enough?

Lindsey: 01:34:37

Well, the first part I think I can answer more easily than the second part. Typically there is a running list of the things that I want to do in life, in my week, in my day.

You can blow it out or zoom in, but this literally just happened to me. I'll use an example. I was at the gym.

I'm excited about my workout, I've got my plan and I'm listening to music and the freaking algorithm puts this song in front of me that is like emotionally charged for me. And there's a lot of memories attached to this song and used to be good memories, now not so much. And so I.

This song comes on and instantly I feel the emotion come.

I've got tears in my eyes, but I'm like at the door of the gym, like I'm standing right outside and I felt myself reach for my phone to just tap next and I was like, what if I didn't, what if I just. How long is this song? I thought that to myself and I looked and I'm like, okay, it's like three and a half minutes.

Can I sit with this for three and a half minutes and listen to this song? And if I cry, then I cry and if I don't and I don't like, just. I don't need to force anything.

This isn't, you know, I'm not going to get a badge for this moment. But what if I just explored a little bit?

And so I did and I just sat outside the gym door and I listened to the whole song and I let the memories come and I let the sadness come. But I was really ready to move on to the original plan, you know, when that was done.

And so I think that that's, that's part of the rebound effect is I already have decided the next thing I'm going to and I'm already excited about it and looking forward to it. So this hard thing is easier to let go of. You know, that's not always a great strategy. It just is. It's just happening.

And so I have to take those moments to really make myself stop and see what might be there.

Creek: 01:37:09

And so the second part of that question, I guess you kind of answered it a little bit, but, like, how do you know when you can let something go?

Lindsey: 01:37:19

I don't know. I don't know. I'm still really learning that. And I think that I'm making a lot of mistakes. Not mistakes. What's the right word?

It doesn't feel like for some things, there's not just like, I let go and I'm done. It feels like I let go and then I'm like, but is that where the greater excitement actually is? Let's go back and try it again.

Let's go test that again. And then something doesn't feel right there. So not that excitement is always the rubric.

I'm not saying that, But I do think that there is that compulsion to be like, oh, no, did I let go of something that I actually should have held on to? Is it too late to reach back and test it and see if maybe that would bring me more enjoyment or pleasure or happiness? And, yeah, I just don't.

I haven't learned that very well yet. I am trying, though.

Creek: 01:38:22

Yeah. I don't think anyone has a great answer to that, but I just wanted to see where it was going to go.

Lindsey: 01:38:28

There is a component of people pleasing and making others happy. And part of the equation for knowing when I'm ready to let go of something is, how much of this am I doing to keep other people okay?

And how much of this am I doing? Because it really, really is what's best.

And for me, I really have trouble knowing the difference or if I can easily see the difference, then I really have trouble acting on it. Because people being mad at me, people being not okay because of something I've done is literally my worst nightmare.

And so, yeah, there's a lot of fear around that. And then there also comes a point where you just. You just know that you can't.

You don't have enough energy to make everybody happy, and it's unreasonable to even try. But there's so much of that that's subconsciously happening that you really have to become aware that you're.

You're expending so much energy just trying to keep everybody okay, and it's not your job. And that will help you let go of some things. I think that, you know the word Glutton came up at some point, I think, with the Institute.

And I was kind of thinking about that in connection with, like, what we were talking about in the intro with Epicureanism and how that relates. And I wrote down this idea, what if you could just be a glutton for the right things?

Abram: 01:40:09

Yeah, yeah, that makes sense for Epicurean. Yeah, yeah, for sure.

Lindsey: 01:40:14

So I think that that's where the awareness to action practice of rewriting your narrative has been really, really helpful for me because I'm not going to stop striving to feel excited. But what I can ask myself is, will this lead to the kind of fulfillment and excitement that I'm actually after?

And that question is connected to the character I'm building. So I will feel excited if I spend $10 on a lipstick. And that excitement will last for a few weeks every time I use the lipstick.

But I will feel more excited if I don't spend that $10 right now and I put it towards a trip that is actually really meaningful to me. You know, a bucket list trip or something like that. There's little things like that and then there's big, big things like that.

I will feel more excited if I let my child have this really tough experience. And then over time, I watch their character grow and their resilience build so that my child is a person who can handle tough situations. Right.

Versus I will feel excited and happy if I can solve this for my child right now and remove their pain and suffering. Right. So where do I really want to. What is the thing I really want to feel excited about?

Abram: 01:41:47

Yeah, I was just thinking my brain correlated that to institute, talked about the essential qualities, you know, joy, and I think freedom. But I was thinking about how maybe joy requires constraint and happiness is just all of it, you know, I want all of it.

Is that correlating somewhat to what you're talking about, Lindsay?

Lindsey: 01:42:13

Maybe.

Abram: 01:42:14

I think this word constraint is helpful because it includes both sides of emotionality. The positive, the negative.

Creek: 01:42:23

I think this is where the other word that awareness to action uses, it's not just excited, it's stimulated. And stimulated has a less positive lean towards it. So there's an intensity towards continuing to engage in something novel.

And that doesn't necessarily always mean happy, doesn't even mean entertaining necessarily. Just. Just something. Something going on. And again, some mistypes like that, in some ways there's some.

That's where I relate to a lot of sevens as a four is like this sort of loving, the. The new thing, the unique thing, the the lust for experiences that are rich in, like, savoring the moments. And both.

Both fours and sevens can do it in maladaptive or adaptive ways. Like, for instance, like, I've seen sevens, like, try to lean into, like, the savoring piece that I think a lot of the schools did talk about.

But then it becomes.

They'll either feel trapped in the savoring or they'll start to idealize the savoring as, like, oh, no, like, this moment that I'm savoring is going to end, and then I won't have the thing that's bringing me joy, and how will.

Lindsey: 01:44:00

I get it again?

Creek: 01:44:01

Yeah. And so it's kind of like this weird sort of like, hold it, but don't hold it.

And that being in Denmark and Soren Kierkegaard, anxiety is the dizziness of freedom.

And so many sevens resonate with that quote, because it's like, I want freedom, I want options, but I'm also an insanely anxious person that is jumping from thing to thing to thing to thing to try to find. To avoid pain and to find pleasure, and. And it's just such a sneaky little guy. It's hard to find stability and freedom at the same time.

Lindsey: 01:44:42

Yeah, I'm getting a mental picture right now.

There's, like, a stability that is, like, this is gonna sound stupid, but, like, if you're imagining, like, a marsh, how do you walk across a marsh, covering as much area as you can with something that's really thin, you know, versus, like, if I'm building a bridge that needs to go across a large body of water, like, I have to go all the way to the bottom of that. I have to anchor it to something much deeper. Right. So both could have their place. But what kind of stability is. Is needed in this moment? And that.

That could change how I hold my sevenness.

Abram: 01:45:27

Yeah. I just hear you saying that the. In a lot of ways, the seven mind is. Is in pursuit of abundance. And in a lot of ways, the discovery is that it's.

It's actually found in going deeper into the thing, not in getting more of the thing, at least not as much. I mean, or it's the. It's the difference between. It can still give me stimulation, but it's not getting me satisfaction.

Lindsey: 01:45:59

Well, and I think two things. Things have muchness, but a seven will see what's missing because they're honing in on. On what they want to see as the positive aspects or something.

So something seems thin and not enough and disappointing. But if you let it fill out and you let a thing or a moment or a situation be the fullness of what it is. It can feel like it's filling you up.

Like it is abundant. You just have to train yourself to receive the abundance that is not the thing that you're naturally wired to want to look for.

Abram: 01:46:39

Right.

Creek: 01:46:40

Yeah. And again, I want to just re.

Emphasize it's easy to kind of interpret, interpret that as some sort of pathology of like wanting options is, is bad and never satisfactory. And that's not always the case.

Yeah, like there's, there's some, there's some moments where like options is incredible and like have, and jumping from thing to thing to thing to thing. If that's what gives you joy, go for it. Right. But being aware of like, okay, when is this bringing me joy? And when is, when is this me running?

When am I just running from the, from the pain and the problem? And when am I, you know, leaning into savoring all the options and living life to the fullest?

I mean, we just released the five episode at the time of this recording and you know, Melissa was saying fives need to be careful with how quick they say no. And I think sevens need to be quick how quick they say yes.

Lindsey: 01:47:38

One trillion percent. Yeah.

Creek: 01:47:40

Yeah.

So something a little more maybe lighthearted and fun I wanted to talk with you about is a data point for when I am trying to get a hypothesis of whether someone is a seven or not. Everyone tells stories. Sevens tend to tell, they communicate, seem to communicate often through stories.

And often the people that have the craziest stories, sevens is near the top for sure. Do you have a crazy story?

Lindsey: 01:48:13

You can share a crazy story? I have lots of crazy stories.

Creek: 01:48:20

Uh huh. Exactly.

Lindsey: 01:48:21

I feel like you remarked on this before, like, how do you have all these stories? It just broke my chat.

Creek: 01:48:29

Exactly. I think that it has that sort of like the yes, the yes component gets sevens into situations that they have to find themselves out of.

Lindsey: 01:48:42

Oh gosh. I want to come up with a good one because you've asked.

Right now I'm thinking about a time when I lived in Tennessee and you know, I don't know if other people have this experience, but when I'm in, in public and I'm engaging people and strangers, I just don't, I don't feel. It's like I know that people are strangers, but I don't feel like people are strangers.

I can find a way to be very comfortable with somebody that I've never engaged with before, ever. And this has led to some really wonderful moments. It's led to some incredibly awkward moments. And so I do think I have a lot of wild stories.

I have a lot of awkward stories. This is something we kind of joke about in our friend group, is like, I did it again. I put my foot in my mouth again.

But when I was living in Tennessee, I met this woman. And I don't even remember where I met her, but she was an older woman. She had have been in her 70s or 80s. And her name was Lisa.

I can't remember her last name, but she. I made myself comfortable with her for some reason.

It was like we were at a farmer's market looking at the same produce or something, and we just started giggling and talking and exchanging information. And the next thing I know, we're telling each other where we live, and she's inviting me over to her house.

n that came over in the early: 1920

Creek: 01:50:23

1920S, huh?

Lindsey: 01:50:26

S,: 1900

Creek: 01:50:32

That'S possible, but she's. No, no, no, that's old.

Lindsey: 01:50:34

Well, I mean, this was 20 years ago, so.

Creek: 01:50:37

Okay, all right.

Lindsey: 01:50:38

ved in Tennessee in the early: 2000

And so if someone is like, come to my house, I'll be like, okay. Like, somewhere in the back of my mind, I'm thinking, is this a great idea? Yes, it is.

Creek: 01:51:02

It's a great idea.

Lindsey: 01:51:02

It absolutely is a great idea.

Creek: 01:51:03

Is that a question or a statement?

Milton Stewart: 01:51:06

Yeah.

Lindsey: 01:51:07

So I end up at Lisa's house. This is the second time I've ever met her. And she is feeding me these delicious German pastries and baked goods that she has made from scratch.

And she's got several other of her friends there who are all her same age, and they are just laughing and having the time of her life. And then Lisa gets out her accordion, and we're sitting at her dining room, and I have to find it. We need to, like.

We could post it on our social media. I have a picture of Lisa with her accordion on her lap, and she's playing some song.

And then she would kind of start to tell about stories from her childhood and. Or, you know, the person who taught her to play accordion or just whatever.

She's just kind of like entertaining me and regaling me with music and pastries and stories. And it was. It was a highlight of my Actual life. That wouldn't have happened.

Milton Stewart: 01:52:05

Wow.

Lindsey: 01:52:05

Unless I was just like, here's a random person. Well, let's just see how far this goes.

Creek: 01:52:13

So many thoughts. Oh, man.

Lindsey: 01:52:18

Was that what you were hoping to get?

Creek: 01:52:20

I had no idea, but worked. That would never happen to me.

Lindsey: 01:52:27

I don't know. I feel like that might.

Creek: 01:52:30

No people. I think people have told me I give off stay away from me vibes, so, you know, it's a gift.

Lindsey: 01:52:40

Oh, those don't register with me. So that's.

Milton Stewart: 01:52:42

Yeah, I know, I know.

Creek: 01:52:47

Oh, man. I think this also points to.

I mean, we've talked about the saying yes to life constantly gets you into all sorts of amazing situations, some not so great situations. And the resilience that I see of bouncing back from failure is the form of that yes as well, of not a big deal. I'll just try again and do it again.

You know, this will be a fun new adventure, but then moving on too quickly. You don't learn from your mistakes and miss certain key things about people, about ideas. I don't know. I think that's.

It's just so admirable, partially because it's so contrary to how I kind of operate.

I'm obviously a little more wired to pessimism, so I don't necessarily have a question, but it's just an observation of how far and wide just saying yes to things can take you.

Lindsey: 01:53:58

You might end on a podcast. You might end up on a podcast.

Creek: 01:54:02

You might. Yes. I think the stereotype is sevens have only positive emotions and avoid all the negative ones. But that hasn't been my experience with you.

Yes, they trend positive, but like you, you. You cry fairly easily.

Lindsey: 01:54:23

Well, I think that's why I didn't see myself as a seven for a long time, is because of the stereotype of them lacking depth, lacking follow through, lacking commitment. There's just better ways to talk about those tendencies.

And yeah, I do feel emotion at the surface, and I think that that is maybe why sevens get mislabeled as shallow. It does feel like everything's kind of like right here for me emotionally. I can access it pretty pretty easily and it can sneak up on me, too.

But I don't know. I've wondered about this too, because I do think that there's a.

There's a spectrum for sevens when it comes to emotions and how easily we experience our own emotions or make room for them in ourselves and other people and what I can say about myself. And I kind of wonder if this might be a way to talk about it. When it comes to sevens, is the spectrum of how fascinating our emotions. For a seven.

Creek: 01:55:31

Fascinating is a great word.

Lindsey: 01:55:33

Yeah. So for me as a person, I find emotions, my own and other people's, wildly fascinating.

So I can go there, and I can go there for a long time, and another seven might be more fascinated by other aspects of human life and might not find emotions as exhilarating. So it could explain some of that there.

Creek: 01:55:59

That's always a data point for me when I feel like sevens. When I experience fascination from a person, seven is on the table with that, the intense curiosity. The sevens are just like.

They're great at asking questions. Questions and just. They'll stay in a subject for a while because it's just endlessly fascinating. And there's a.

There's a childlike curiosity there, and it's, like, stimulating and how far can I take this? Like, how. How deep can I go? And I think it's. It's a. It's a gift, you know, when you.

When you're in conversation with the seven, because they'll just stick with it to. To find the next new thing. And it's. And it's. It's really fascinating. So.

Lindsey: 01:56:44

And maybe that's where subtype language is helpful, because as a navigator, I think I just am naturally more fascinated by relationships and connections, and I think people's emotional worlds are just a huge part of connecting with them. And so I might, on a subtype level, just be more geared in that direction.

Creek: 01:57:08

Sure, sure. So we hear from a lot of people like this propensity to. Well, with everyone.

We reframe things in particular ways in order to fit our narratives, in order to make us feel certain things. So sevens often reframed towards the positive. How have you seen that work for you and work against you and kind of.

What's the difference of, like, a mature, skillful, and adaptive version of that versus not?

Lindsey: 01:57:39

Yeah, I know that I experience that tendency to reframe so fast and so easily, and I don't even realize I'm doing it sometimes. Or I'll tell something that's, like, really sad and painful, and then I'll be like, but it's gonna be fine, you know?

Or like, one thing that Stephanie Spencer said to me, she's like, do you realize that, like, you end every Marco Polo you send me with some kind of, like, a joke about something you just said? Like, it's just a trend.

And so I think that there's nothing inherently wrong with that, but I do think it's important to Ask myself, well, what is it in me that's compelling me to just. I need to end it on a light note. I need to. This has to end up on an upswing.

Creek: 01:58:33

Yeah. This has to end well.

Lindsey: 01:58:36

Yeah. What is that? Why? Why? Why do I need that? I think I don't.

I think that's where I'm at with it is not necessarily having an answer about when it's helpful and when it's getting in my way.

I know that it is helpful sometimes, and I know that it gets in my way sometimes times, but I'm just developmentally in the space where I'm wondering about it, like, why do I need that? What is it doing for me? And I think that sometimes, especially. You know, we've talked about this too, before.

Your defense strategies, your defense mechanisms are ways for you to survive, and they've helped you. And they've helped your brain be super efficient, and they've helped you get through things you needed to get through.

So I don't want to talk about them disrespectfully.

I don't want to talk about those things in a way that doesn't honor the brilliance of our adaptation, our ability to move through things we just got to get through. And for me, that's what that is, is.

Abram: 01:59:44

Oh.

Maria Jose: 01:59:45

Oh.

Lindsey: 01:59:45

The other day, you know, I was at the coffee shop, and I was like, I needed to make my grocery order online, and I literally felt like, I'm not gonna get through this. It was just a particularly hard day. And I was like, I can't do this thing that is super boring and hard for me.

And I know it's just a normal, adult thing that I should be able to do in 15 minutes and be done with it, but it feels so hard. And I had to put on fun music and listen to fun music while I made my grocery order, and that got me through that moment I needed to get through.

I know it might sound silly to somebody else. You don't need to do that.

I needed to do that on that day, and I'm grateful that I can think quickly enough to be like, how can I resource myself in this moment to just get the thing off my list that I need to get off my list?

Creek: 02:00:38

Honestly, sevens are just masters at knowing where to find the dopamine hit. Dopamine makes things easier.

Lindsey: 02:00:49

Yeah.

Creek: 02:00:49

Just scientifically, biologically speaking, dopamine makes things easier.

Lindsey: 02:00:54

Well, yeah. And sometimes I wonder what it's doing to my nervous system. That might not be the best thing for me.

Like, what is the am I raising my baseline with all this stimulation that I'm craving and giving myself to where now, when I can't have that, I don't know how to just be still and be with myself. It's a concern I've had for my literal actual health because you can't disconnect them.

Creek: 02:01:21

So I think one practical thing could.

Milton Stewart: 02:01:25

Be.

Creek: 02:01:28

Understanding the dopamine system and. And how to work with it, how it's in sometimes working against you and.

And find ways to do hard things to be able to have a much more sustained dopamine release instead of just stacking.

Lindsey: 02:01:49

Yeah.

Creek: 02:01:50

Experience after experience trying to get to that next high.

Lindsey: 02:01:53

And let's be trauma informed here and say we're not encouraging you to go outside of your window of tolerance. That is part of this is knowing what that is. And I have had panic attacks while meditating before because it was just.

I didn't know I was already outside my window of tolerance and I was making myself try to sit with something that my nervous system couldn't be with in that moment for sure. So that's when you use your strategies. That's when you use your. Your coping skills to help you.

Creek: 02:02:25

All right, let's talk mistypings real quick. We've named a couple already, like two and four.

Abram: 02:02:32

I think there definitely can be some transmitting nine similarities to sevens. Does there. I think there's a excitedness or even just a more.

I think there's more options, but there's also like a more of a confidence, I think sometimes about transmitting nines that I do think in general I get a quality of confidence from sevenness. Like I can figure that out. I can do that. You know.

Creek: 02:03:07

Yeah. I think threes. Of course, there's probably some of that there of just the hard driving. Again, mistypings happen. Yes.

Because humans are complicated, but it's also because of the stereotype thing. So I guess in some ways we're naming stereotype stuff.

Abram: 02:03:22

But a Rare mistyping is 7 and 2. But you know, it can happen.

Lindsey: 02:03:28

So rare.

Abram: 02:03:29

Yeah.

Creek: 02:03:30

So rare. Also, I just. This is kind of off topic, but just. We want to. We want to.

I know we're using, you know, instinct, instinctual bias, like self preservation and preserving in the same sentence. But we want to just continue to remind the listener they. They are similar in some ways, but they are not equally exchanged. Yeah.

So just kind of keep that in mind.

Abram: 02:03:54

It's like dollars and pesos.

Creek: 02:03:58

Sure.

Abram: 02:04:00

Another mistyping.

Lindsey: 02:04:01

He's so cultured.

Abram: 02:04:03

Is seven and four actually. Yeah, it's. It's not often, but I think there is an idealistic quality they both share.

Creek: 02:04:12

I guess I could see some eight, too. Like the transmitting seven or the sexual seven. You know, like this. This really just again, just going after what they want.

Obviously there's an affective difference, but you see that sort of lust for life. Yeah, intensity, for sure. Seth, what do you got for. Or, Abram, what do you got for us for the quote today?

Abram: 02:04:36

This one is from Thich Nhat Hanh, who said that joy is not in the endless chase for experience, but in the fullness of presence with what is already here.

Lindsey: 02:04:47

False. Twice true.

Creek: 02:04:52

That's Lindsay's quote.

Milton Stewart: 02:04:57

Oh, man.

Creek: 02:04:58

All right. And then finally, quickly, practical practices for inspired by sevens. Abram, you start, then I'll go, then Lindsay, you can finish.

Abram: 02:05:09

Yeah. I think going back to this word that I have encouraged in sevens in coaching in the past is restraint.

And recognizing how restraint is a thing that can help you expand your definition of freedom. Because if you think of, like, how fruit, I don't know if it's fruit, but some kind of plant or food that grows.

A lot of certain foods need something to grow on, like a trellis or like a wire, but that is actually what's building, allowing the thing to grow and become substance, you know, and that can be consumed and contributed in a deep, meaningful way.

So I think in a similar way, sevens to find maybe more depth in their life sometimes requires some constraint to help them build something meaningful.

Creek: 02:06:03

Yeah, I mean, the things that I've. Friends that are sevens or people that I've worked with, it's really about just kind of reframing.

Honestly, Lindsay, what you've said about, like the thickness of the moment of if we're just skimming across the top, just catching this bits that we want, we're not actually fully living. And so many sevens like that is the thing that they want most is like this deep, profound, juicy life.

And the juicy life is found in the fullness of the positive and the negative, the pleasurable and unpleasurable, and letting those inform each other and bring you to a greater sense of reality that you can. There's so much stimulation out there. Can you hold all of it? It's difficult, but a much more fulfilling way to live.

Lindsey: 02:07:04

Well, mine I don't think is going to be quite as profound, but I mean, if you have not just ever turned on a great song and danced your booty patootie off in your own kitchen.

Creek: 02:07:24

Such a Midwest mom word.

Lindsey: 02:07:26

Wow, you better dance that cutie. Booty patootie right off because it just, it's so. It's so energizing.

I think that it does so much to not take yourself too seriously, to really lean into the joy that literally is just available to you. It's just there. And I think it also contributes to maintaining a of sense. Sense of connection with your childlike self.

Creek: 02:08:04

Well, Lindsay, thank you for being the mostly levity to the gravity of the Seths. You make life more fun. So Sevens, we hope you feel well represented. I'm sure we did not hit it out of the park completely, but send us hate mail.

Lindsey: 02:08:27

We love it.

Creek: 02:08:28

Please, please do. Respectfully, thank you. And yeah, tune in next week. So we have all. Now we. Now we know everything. You know. Now we know everything about the types.

Right. What do we do with it? The most important part of this whole entire thing. So definitely tune in for next episode.

Mario Sikora: 02:08:50

It's to.

Milton Stewart: 02:08:50

Going.

Creek: 02:08:51

Going to be. It's going to be fun. Thanks for listening to Fathoms and Enneagram podcast.

If this episode affected you in some way, we'd love it if you would share it with a friend or family member. Don't forget to check out the show notes for ways to connect with us and continue your serious work as an unserious human.

Lindsey: 02:09:32

Get your life together.

Abram: 02:09:37

Want to go fishing?

Milton Stewart: 02:09:42

Oh, man.

Lindsey: 02:09:47

He thinks we're so uncultured. We are.

Abram: 02:09:49

Do we want to restart this or are we keeping it?

Lindsey: 02:09:51

We're keeping it.

Creek: 02:09:52

We'll see.

Lindsey: 02:09:54

We'll see. Dad said we'll see.

Abram: 02:09:58

That means no go Denmarkians. Is that the. Is that the technical.

Creek: 02:10:04

No, you're technically wrong.

Abram: 02:10:06

What is it? Denmarkins.

Creek: 02:10:07

Danish.

Abram: 02:10:08

Denmarks. Oh, my gosh.

Lindsey: 02:10:11

It's like a donut. It's like a donut. Abram.

Creek: 02:10:15

Yeah, let's talk in donuts.

Lindsey: 02:10:16

You know what donuts are?

Creek: 02:10:18

I need to. I need to get some energy.

Lindsey: 02:10:21

That's what you could have gone as for Halloween Creek.

Creek: 02:10:24

Energy, energy.

Milton Stewart: 02:10:28

Energy.

Creek: 02:10:29

I have particles going through space.

Lindsey: 02:10:33

You can just bounce, bounce against people.

Creek: 02:10:36

Just like body check people as I go down the street. Sorry, this is just photons.

Milton Stewart: 02:10:42

It.

Creek: 02:10:47

Okay.