Episode 8
Type 2: The Heartfelt Drive to Give, Support, and Connect
The primary focus of this podcast episode revolves around the exploration of Enneagram Type 2, often referred to as "the Helper." We delve into the intricacies of this type, examining the motivations that drive individuals characterized by this type to seek connection and affirmation through their relationships with others. In particular, we scrutinize the potential for mistyping, as Type 2s may exhibit traits that overlap with other Enneagram types, such as Sevens and Nines, leading to confusion in self-identification. The conversation further highlights the emotional nuances and inherent challenges faced by Type 2s, including the struggle with boundaries and the tendency to prioritize others' needs over their own. Throughout our discourse, we aim to provide listeners with a deeper understanding of the complexities of Type 2, offering insights that may facilitate personal growth and interpersonal dynamics.
Human Interview: Hunter Mobley
Letting Go, Finding You: Uncover Your Truest Self through the Enneagram and Contemplation
Forty Days on Being a Two
The Narrative Enneagram - Type 2
The Enneagram Institute - Type 2
Awareness to Action - Type 2
Awareness to Action
Enneagram on Demand - Certification Program
Mario Sikora:
IG: @mariosikora
TikTok: @mariosikora
Web: mariosikora.com
Substack: mariosikora.substack.com
Maria Jose Munita:
IG: @mjmunita
Web: mjmunita.com
Podcasts:
The Narrative Tradition
Terry Saracino:
Web: https://www.narrativeenneagram.org/team/terry-saracino/
Christopher Copeland:
Narrative Podcasts:
The Enneagram Institute
Gayle Scott:
Email - gayle@enneagrammysteryschool.com
Michael Naylor:
Web - enneagrammaine.com
You Tube - Enneagram Maine Interviews
—
Fathoms | An Enneagram Podcast: Serious Growth for Unserious Humans
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Help Fathoms, By Supporting Us Here: Fathoms Membership Community
Co-hosts: Seth Abram, Seth Creekmore, Lindsey Marks
Production/Editing: Liminal Podcasts
- Follow us on Instagram: @fathoms.enneagram
- Follow Abram: @integratedenneagram
- Follow Creek: @_creekmore
- Follow Lindsey: @lindseyfaithdm
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Transcript
Welcome back to Fathoms, an enneagram podcast.
Speaker A:This is Abram and Craig and Lindsay, and we are headed to type 2 for this episode.
Speaker A:I know this is an area in which Lindsay has explored for quite a while.
Speaker A:And recently, if you listen to a more recent essipode, what epipode was that discovered the tunis is not actually where she primarily hangs out.
Speaker A:So.
Speaker B:Yeah, Yeah, I know.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:Lindsay passing it to you.
Speaker B:Yeah, we're excited to talk about tease today.
Speaker B:It's going to be good.
Speaker B:It's going to be.
Speaker B:We're going to hash some things out, I think.
Speaker A:But, yeah, I'm especially excited to hear from you, Lindsay, particularly because, you know, at the end of each of the episodes, the type of episodes we've been doing, you know, mistyping with the type, you know, other numbers that tend to look like two or reasons in which we can mistype.
Speaker A:And I just think, you know, who better to talk about potential mistyping of 2 ness than just, yeah, you guys can leave.
Speaker B:I think I got this one.
Speaker A:All right, see you.
Speaker B:Bye.
Speaker B:No, yeah, I'm excited to talk about it, too.
Speaker B:I think it'll be clarifying for listeners to hash out some of these differences that a lot of times get overlooked.
Speaker B:And I have a lot of questions, so you guys can just put your answer pants on, because I'm locked and loaded with questions for you.
Speaker A:Respond.
Speaker A:How about responses?
Speaker B:I don't know if responses.
Speaker B:Okay, that's great.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:Perspective.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:Yep.
Speaker A:Perspectives.
Speaker A:That's good.
Speaker A:Should we jump it into terminology?
Speaker A:Defining some stuff?
Speaker B:Let's do some defos.
Speaker A:Okay, I will start us.
Speaker B:Creek just thinks we're stupid today.
Speaker C:I'm just saying how long I can go without saying anything in this episode.
Speaker A:It's a little different.
Speaker B:It's so awkward.
Speaker A:All right, we're going to get used.
Speaker B:To it, aren't we, Abram?
Speaker B:We're going to be fine.
Speaker A:You stay muted, Creek.
Speaker A:You stay there.
Speaker A:You stay put.
Speaker A:All right, so defining some terms, we do all these, right?
Speaker A:Oh, I don't know.
Speaker A:You tell me.
Speaker A:Oh, I'm not going to tell you.
Speaker A:Figure it out, dummies.
Speaker C:Okay, fine.
Speaker C:Let's.
Speaker C:Let's get this over with.
Speaker C:Yeah, we're talking about twos, if you haven't figured that out yet.
Speaker C:These jokers beating around the bush for 15 minutes.
Speaker A:I think I said that.
Speaker C:Here we go.
Speaker C:We're gonna define our terms here.
Speaker C:And if you haven't listened to these yet, you should listen to them now because they are important.
Speaker A:But I do give you the grace to fast Forward if you already know this part.
Speaker B:If you've memorized them, you may fast.
Speaker A:Forward and you can tell I'm from the 90s.
Speaker B:I grew up in the same thing.
Speaker B:Anyway, we should do a challenge for the finale.
Speaker B:A game to see a game.
Speaker C:You're suggesting a game.
Speaker C:Hold on.
Speaker C:This doesn't feel right.
Speaker B:Listen, the one who can say the most of these definitions from memory should win something of us or listeners of the other two.
Speaker B:You have to Venmo us.
Speaker B:Venmo me $5 when I win each of you.
Speaker C:Okay.
Speaker B:Something like that.
Speaker A:I couldn't tell you a single one of these.
Speaker A:Are you on top of my head?
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker C:Well, let's get into it.
Speaker C:So type a category of people or things having common characteristics.
Speaker C:A person or thing symbolizing or exemplifying the ideal or defining characteristic of something.
Speaker A:I want to do a model.
Speaker A:So.
Speaker B:Okay, you want a model.
Speaker B:I didn't know this was a dream of yours.
Speaker C:You know, you kind of want to.
Speaker C:You are a young Brad Pitt.
Speaker A:You know, I actually just told that today.
Speaker D:Yes.
Speaker A:So you're not the first person to say that.
Speaker B:Okay.
Speaker B:Strategy, a plan of action or policy designed to achieve a major or overall aim.
Speaker A:I'm doing model.
Speaker A:So go ahead.
Speaker B:Pattern, a regular and intelligible form or sequence discernible in certain actions or.
Speaker B:Or situations.
Speaker A:Model, a simplified and provisional description of a system or process to assist calculations and predictions.
Speaker B:Connected, brought together or into contact so that a real or notional link is established to bind together in Latin.
Speaker C:Yes, yes.
Speaker C:There we go.
Speaker C:And why we.
Speaker A:Why are we mentioning the word connect?
Speaker B:Us Connectus.
Speaker C:So we're talking about type two today.
Speaker C:And for awareness to action model, you have striving to feel connected.
Speaker C:Right.
Speaker C:And then for the other models, at least on this, on who we're using, you know, Rizo Hudson and Igram Institute and the narrative tradition of the labels helpers.
Speaker C:A lot of help is being.
Speaker C:That word is brought up.
Speaker C:A lot.
Speaker C:So help is to make easier for someone to do something by offering one's services or resources or to take something without permission.
Speaker C:Help yourself to anything.
Speaker C:Which I thought was an interesting variation.
Speaker A:Absolutely.
Speaker C:On that.
Speaker C:So, Lindsay, what are some things that the listener needs to keep in mind as they're listening to this episode?
Speaker A:Tray tables, back seats.
Speaker B:I switched notes.
Speaker A:Forward.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:Keep your hands inside the car.
Speaker A:Enjoy this experience on your favorite roller coaster.
Speaker B:I was doing a roller coaster.
Speaker A:I was doing a mixture of both.
Speaker B:Okay.
Speaker B:In case of turbulence.
Speaker B:Just kidding.
Speaker B:Creek is rolling his eyes.
Speaker B:You don't have to edit any of this out, you know, you can just leave it all in.
Speaker B:So some things to keep in mind, we all just have the tendency to talk about these types and sort of develop some specific stereotypes around, around each type.
Speaker B:And so if you could just develop the practice as you listen, of noticing what a stereotype is that you're holding around type 2 and then challenge it.
Speaker B:Be brave enough to challenge it.
Speaker B:Maybe it's a stereotype for a good reason and it needs to belong.
Speaker B:Maybe it's not.
Speaker B:Maybe we need to let go of it.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:What else, boys?
Speaker A:I'll just add, for me personally, the primary reason to do that is because you don't let a person then, who holds the type to a differing degree show up differently.
Speaker A:You expect them to act in a certain way every time, and so they can't be different than the idea of them you hold in your mind.
Speaker A:And so then you're, you know, then you're basing someone's behavior on how you're expecting them.
Speaker A:And if they don't meet that, you know, it's just the very one of the worst ways to be in relationship with anybody.
Speaker A:And technically, you're not in relationship with that person.
Speaker A:So hence wonderful for type two here.
Speaker B:You'Re technically not in relationship with that person.
Speaker B:Dang mic drop there.
Speaker B:That was good.
Speaker C:Okay, so just some other things to keep in mind.
Speaker C:The following descriptions are not really involving the instincts instinctual bias.
Speaker C:So there's lots of variance when we add the instinct instinctual bias with the type or strategy.
Speaker C:So just kind of keep that in mind that there's a lot of variation within a type, not even, you know, talking about the person that contextualizes the type.
Speaker C:So again, for all the beginners, if there's language in here that you feel is.
Speaker C:You don't know what we're talking about, you can check the show notes.
Speaker C:If it's not there, then you should definitely reach out to us and we will help explain those things.
Speaker C:So without further ado, here we have the teachers.
Speaker A:The narrative enneagram.
Speaker E:The focus of the heart center is really about attention toward how others are responding to oneself.
Speaker E:So so much attention goes outward to how are other people responding to me?
Speaker E:The needs are about connection, bonding, relationship, and the core emotion is sadness.
Speaker E:That's the traditional one.
Speaker E:We also use language that's come out of some other work that Dan Siegel and others have done called separation distress.
Speaker E:It's kind of this emotion.
Speaker E:It's like there's this distress at the sense of separation.
Speaker E:And all three of these types really feel that pretty intense.
Speaker E:And then the gifts here in the heart center are empathy and compassion and really attunement to one another.
Speaker E:So we start with the type 2 called the helper.
Speaker E:And the worldview here is the world requires people to give in order to get.
Speaker E:And also this sense of like you only get love if you are giving to others.
Speaker E:Your value, your sense of worth comes from giving.
Speaker E:That's the way the type tends to see the world.
Speaker E:And I should say when somebody asked me recently, like, isn't that an illusion?
Speaker E:And I say, of course it is.
Speaker E:It's not the full picture, but it is the worldview from the perspective of the type.
Speaker E:So the response to that worldview is the sense of like.
Speaker E:Twos believe that they can get love and approval by meeting the needs of others, particularly important others.
Speaker E:If I can sense the needs of important others and meet those needs, fulfill those needs, then I have a sense of value, a sense of worth and really feel loved.
Speaker E:That's the response.
Speaker E:So as you can imagine, some of the strengths here are for the twos are like super generous, like giving and kind and helpful and supportive and you know, just this kind of sensitivity to the feelings of others.
Speaker E:There's a thoughtfulness, a willingness, there's a kind of a yes that happens here for the two.
Speaker D:And then you can.
Speaker E:Every gift for every type also has sort of a flip side, right?
Speaker E:So for the challenges for twos, we might talk about being intrusive because you can think about if the two often say that kind of twos know the needs of others.
Speaker E:Often this is really easy for them to sense.
Speaker E:But because the sense of value comes from meeting the needs and getting some kind of something back, the twos will can rush in sometimes and support and help.
Speaker E:And that can become intrusive.
Speaker E:And that can be a challenge for twos.
Speaker E:And for those of us who love them, saying no is hard.
Speaker E:Setting boundaries, not clearly asking for what they need can be a challenge and a kind of sense of over accommodating.
Speaker E:So the driver here, the motivation for the type is getting that love and connection and approval by meeting the needs of others.
Speaker E:If I can meet the needs of others, I will get some kind of connection.
Speaker E:And you know, just to say too, sometimes there's a resistance here because sometimes we talk about it as if it's transactional and it can be, but generally there's a sense of like, it's about connection.
Speaker E:It's like if I can meet your need, then we feel, I feel connected.
Speaker E:And that connection also feels like a sense of love.
Speaker E:And I feel like I have worth and value too, might say so.
Speaker E:And then the mental habit, where we talk about the mental habit is like where the attention goes on automatic.
Speaker E:Where does the two's attention go?
Speaker E:And it's on other people's needs.
Speaker E:It's that external, like what are the needs and feelings of others?
Speaker E:And it's not even conscious, this mental habit, it just happens and automatic.
Speaker E:So and kind of given all of that about the type, I want to also then say like just mention the virtue and the open hearted quality.
Speaker E:Because we are not a type.
Speaker E:We are much more than that.
Speaker E:We lead with the type, as we say in the narrative tradition, and we are there.
Speaker E:Type is part of who we are and we're much more than that.
Speaker E:And so when twos can kind of begin to relax some of this, this drive to meet the needs of others, what begins to happen is this kind of ability to recognize one's own needs, kind of being able to see one's own needs and to willingness to ask for help and actually receive from others this kind of sense of like, oh my needs are as valuable and as important as the needs of those around me.
Speaker E:And so energy becomes balanced.
Speaker E:They don't abandon themselves in a sort of way for the needs of others.
Speaker E:And then this is kind of acceptance of one's true value and worth as inherent.
Speaker E:And this is really true for all of the hard types, but really that the worth and value is inherent and not based on a need to earn it to meeting the needs of others.
Speaker E:So that's the work, if you will, and that open hearted quality that we would call humility.
Speaker B:Enneagram INSTITUTE.
Speaker F:So then there's the type 2 and we call the type 2 the helper, the caring, interpersonal type.
Speaker F:And we're going into the heart center now and the type 2, certainly if you have type twos in your life, you're very aware of this caring, loving passion for helping people and alleviating their suffering and feeling other people's heart suffering.
Speaker F:And so there's this natural inclination for type 2s to really want to help you with wherever you're suffering, wherever you're hurt.
Speaker F:And when I'm healthy, I have this capacity to know when help might be necessary and I ask permission to help.
Speaker F:When I'm a little less unhealthy and a little less secure in myself, I might develop a pattern of intruding with my help.
Speaker F:And so when I'm really healthy, I'm very skillful around boundaries and also about how to nurture myself.
Speaker F:So when I'm really healthy as a 2, I can go both ways.
Speaker F:I can care for you in a way that's passionate and deep and deeply committed.
Speaker F:And I also have time to care for my own heart and soul.
Speaker F:There's this sense of welcome to people.
Speaker F:And ultimately, on some level, there's almost like an internal speaking that something along the lines that, I love you.
Speaker F:You know, you may not know it or not, but I already love you, you, and.
Speaker F:And I care for you.
Speaker F:And 1 and 2 has someone in their life they care for, they can really dig in like a mama bear and make sure that their loved ones are cared for.
Speaker F:You know, we say they go to eight, but there's this sense of it's not a wimpy type of love, right?
Speaker F:When.
Speaker F:When genuine love is being expressed, it has a way of melting down ego structures, too.
Speaker F:So it's not a, you know, just a feeble kind of force form.
Speaker F:When I'm less healthy, what happens for the two is I lose contact with the fact that I am a part of the embodiment of love.
Speaker F:And I start to get caught up in trying to create connections with people that remind me that I'm still loved.
Speaker F:And so I can start to collect people who need me to reassure me that I'm okay, that I.
Speaker F:That I have enough love around me.
Speaker F:But when I'm healthy, I don't do that.
Speaker F:I.
Speaker F:I really serve people in such a way that I'm really honoring their independence and making sure that my loving kindness is empowering the people I'm working with.
Speaker F:So very sensitive.
Speaker F:Challenge for the type 2 is not to drink in people's suffering.
Speaker F:Really easy for them to just be touched by something and then just take it into their core and then, you know, suffer with it.
Speaker F:So learning balance around that's a big deal for the two.
Speaker F:And, you know, we call them the, you know, positive outcome types of their ability to kind of envision the best and wish for the best for you and to encourage the best in you is one of their great gifts.
Speaker F:When I'm less healthy, I just may have to take you as a hostage to make sure I'm okay.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker C:Something interesting about the twos and threes and fours.
Speaker C:All the types in the heart center is that they are very dependent on a kind of communication loop.
Speaker C:Loop between them and other people.
Speaker C:Their audience or the people that they're with.
Speaker C:And twos in particular really need to feel that their love is being received and appreciated and honored by other people and that they're Receiving back a kind of validation for being the loving, giving, kind, generous people that they take themselves to be.
Speaker D:When that dries up, like for the.
Speaker C:Two, it's like, I don't know who I am.
Speaker C:And that's true for the twos, threes and fours ata.
Speaker G:So type two is what we call striving to feel connected.
Speaker G:So a lot of people talk about the two as a helper.
Speaker G:We don't use that term because, number one, there are lots of people who identify as helpers.
Speaker G:I was having an interview with a woman today who thought she was a type 2 because she sees herself as a very helpful person, but she's actually a preserving seven who can also be helpers as well.
Speaker G:So it's not about helping.
Speaker G:It's about this fundamental need to feel connected to people.
Speaker G:It's almost like I don't know who I am unless I'm connected to someone or to other people.
Speaker G:And it's how we get our instinctual needs met.
Speaker G:So a preserving 2 will connect to people in order to get their preserving needs met.
Speaker G:A navigating two will connect in order to get their navigating needs met.
Speaker G:And I'm sorry, a transmitting 2 will connect to people in order to transmit to them.
Speaker G:Typically, what we see is that.
Speaker G:And again, like Maria Jose said, we don't use healthy, average, unhealthy for a lot of reasons.
Speaker G:I actually just wrote a substack about this as well.
Speaker G:But twos, what they're focused on is connecting people, building rapport with them, nurturing them and helping them.
Speaker G:Because helping them is a way to connect under stress.
Speaker G:When they start to feel like, hey, we're not connecting here, I'm trying to connect, so I'm going to maybe try harder to connect.
Speaker G:And so I'm not going to respect boundaries.
Speaker G:I might not respect my own boundaries and let people, people take advantage of me, or I might not respect other people's boundaries and I might become intrusive of them.
Speaker G:I might start to feel unappreciated, right?
Speaker G:I do so much for people, but nobody appreciates me.
Speaker G:Nobody appreciates how hard I try to make everybody happy and so forth.
Speaker G:And they can fall into not taking care of their own needs because they're so busy taking care of other people's needs.
Speaker G:Now, when it comes to the connecting points, the connecting points points are at point eight and point four.
Speaker G:Point four is what we call the neglected strategy.
Speaker G:And that strategy is striving to feel unique.
Speaker G:So whereas the one uses striving to feel unique to reinforce their sense of feeling perfect.
Speaker G:The two resists being too unique.
Speaker G:Because, look, if I'm one of those weird fours who is always showing how they're different from everybody else, how am I going to connect to people, right?
Speaker G:Only teasing about the world.
Speaker G:The weird fours.
Speaker G:Some fours are very nice people.
Speaker G:The impulse is to show how I am the same as you, what we have in common, what we share, rather than to express my own individuality and what I really care about and how I am different from others.
Speaker G:So that can be a challenge for them is to establish their own identity in that way.
Speaker G:Now, when it goes to the other direction, the support strategy is at point 8, which is striving to feel powerful.
Speaker G:So it's almost as if the two is saying, you know what?
Speaker G:You're not connecting with me.
Speaker G:I will make you connect with me.
Speaker G:I will force you to connect with me.
Speaker G:I will bully you into connecting me.
Speaker G:I will guilt you into connecting with me.
Speaker G:Fundamentally, I will use coercion of some sort.
Speaker G:Sort.
Speaker G:And I can get very aggressive and very loud in my efforts to do so.
Speaker G:Dramatic, perhaps.
Speaker G:So, again, as with all the types, there's this dynamic between these strategies, right?
Speaker G:We're moving back and forth from one to the other to try and maintain that feeling of striving to feel connected.
Speaker G:Even when I am using the strategy at point four, I'm not becoming a four.
Speaker G:I'm using striving to feel unique, to feel more connected, or not using striving to feel unique, to become more connected.
Speaker G:And the same thing at point eight, I'm not becoming an eight.
Speaker G:I'm not becoming like an eight.
Speaker G:I'm not trying to integrate to eight or disintegrate to eight or any of that stuff.
Speaker G:I am trying to connect through the strategy of strong and feel powerful.
Speaker A:All right, well, hey, Hunter, man, I'm so glad you're here.
Speaker A:We're going to kick things off with.
Speaker A:We'd like to unravel things early by doing a brief rapid fire.
Speaker A:Just a few questions for you to.
Speaker A:For our listeners to get to know you in the beginning.
Speaker A:So on a scale from 1 to 10, how good are you, would you say, at keeping secrets?
Speaker D:Oh, gosh.
Speaker D:So one is the best, one's the worst.
Speaker D:Okay.
Speaker D:Yes, man.
Speaker D:You know, I'm gonna have to give that a qualified three, but let me.
Speaker D:Let me qualify that real quick because I see where you're going with this, Seth.
Speaker D:You're trying to really kind of from moment one.
Speaker D:So.
Speaker D:Absolutely.
Speaker D:I think, like, like many twos, I resonate as one of those people I'm a verbal processor.
Speaker D:I've got to hear myself talk things out before I even know how I think about it or feel about it.
Speaker D:I'm a relationship person, so I would say that I am very good at, like, keeping secrets from the right people.
Speaker D:You know what I mean?
Speaker D:Like.
Speaker D:Like, I.
Speaker D:Like.
Speaker D:I'm very good at thinking about, you know, who can kind of hold this and handle this correctly and will honor this in the same way that I will.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker D:And, you know, who may not.
Speaker D:So I'd say.
Speaker D:I'd say it turns out okay.
Speaker D:But, you know, I'm not.
Speaker D:I'm not a steel trap, you know, I want to talk about life with you.
Speaker D:I want to process things with you.
Speaker C:Yep.
Speaker B:I love it.
Speaker C:Wow.
Speaker B:Relatable.
Speaker B:Okay, me next.
Speaker B:Me next.
Speaker D:Okay.
Speaker B:Okay.
Speaker D:Don't make me nervous.
Speaker B:Here's the scenario.
Speaker B:Someone is surprising you by making you dinner or a meal of some kind.
Speaker B:Okay.
Speaker B:They make this meal to you, they present it to you, and it is the worst meal that they could possibly have made for you.
Speaker B:What is the meal and what do you do?
Speaker D:Oh, wow.
Speaker D:Okay.
Speaker D:Well, first of all, the meal for me is something with truffle infused oil.
Speaker D:Like, there are only two things for me, and I'm weird in this.
Speaker D:I'm a cilantro and a truffle person, where, like, I have total aversions to both of those flavors, which is strange because I know everybody loves truffle.
Speaker B:Actually doesn't.
Speaker B:So you're in good comfort, really.
Speaker D:Okay.
Speaker D:Yeah.
Speaker D:Good, good.
Speaker D:That makes me feel better.
Speaker D:So the meal would be kind of, you know, some, like, mushroom on top of mushroom on top of mushroom situation.
Speaker D:But honestly, I mean, I would do my best to eat it and just affirm what a gracious thing this was.
Speaker D:I mean, I would want them to feel honored, and I would.
Speaker D:And I would genuinely be grateful that they had done something for me and thought of me.
Speaker D:So, you know, I'd fight my way through it.
Speaker D:That's great.
Speaker D:I've done that many times, and I'm sure I will continue to do that many more times.
Speaker D:And genuinely, I'm grateful.
Speaker D:I mean, I really am.
Speaker D:You know, it's like somebody wants to do something for me.
Speaker D:I can do my best to meet them where they are in that.
Speaker C:All right, so final off the cuff question.
Speaker C:What is something either, you know a lot about that people would be really surprised that you know a lot about or something that you collect that is just unusual?
Speaker D:Oh, wow.
Speaker D:Okay.
Speaker D:So.
Speaker D:So something that I know a lot about.
Speaker D:This might not totally Surprise.
Speaker D:Seth.
Speaker D:Or, you know, But I've had all these different sort of vocational journeys.
Speaker D:And one of those was I pastored a church in Nashville for six years.
Speaker D:And it's different than what I do now, and it's different from my Enneagram travel and teaching, but I do, I love, I'm a student of theology.
Speaker D:I love church history and theology.
Speaker D:So I can kind of geek out with people on that when somebody's interested in talking about that.
Speaker D:Also, my partner is a, is a builder.
Speaker D:And so we always have a project going on where we're always renovating a home, building a home, flipping a home, building a home.
Speaker D:And so I all of a sudden, in the last 10 years, have learned a lot about home construction.
Speaker D:So that's kind of shocking from my past.
Speaker D:But collecting wise, I am a collector.
Speaker D:I mean, I've got, if you come to my house, I've got all these interesting little sort of collections of things.
Speaker D:I collect coffee table books.
Speaker D:I collect art.
Speaker D:Art's the main thing that I collect.
Speaker D:So I've got, I rotate, I wrote, we rotate art in our home kind of seasonally.
Speaker D:And so, you know, that's, that's the thing you would notice the most, that we collect.
Speaker C:That's, that's cool.
Speaker C:That's.
Speaker C:That's a solid collection.
Speaker C:Yeah, man.
Speaker C:All right, so you've kind of hinted at it a little bit, but could you give us a brief story of kind of how you came to the Enneagram?
Speaker C:What was discovering your type?
Speaker C:Like, what was that?
Speaker C:How did that go?
Speaker D:Yeah, I mean, honestly, I feel like I've got the perfect Enneagram origin story because it kind of speaks so much to a two's heart.
Speaker D:And I had never heard about the word Enneagram.
Speaker D:I'd never heard it.
Speaker D:Didn't know what it was, didn't know what it meant.
Speaker D:And I'm sitting at a dinner table in Boca Grande, Florida, at the Gasparilla Club, having chicken and, you know, potatoes.
Speaker D:And I'm seated next to Suzanne Stabile from Dallas, Texas.
Speaker D:Never met her, didn't know she was, didn't know what she did, didn't know anything about anything.
Speaker D:And I'm seated next to her and her husband at kind of a friend's dinner party at a dinner table.
Speaker D:And we're both twos, you know, it turns out I didn't know anything about that language at the, the moment.
Speaker D:But so we just naturally start, you know, who are you?
Speaker D:Who are you?
Speaker D:Where do you live?
Speaker D:Oh, nice to meet you and tell me about your life.
Speaker D:And what are you interested in?
Speaker D:And so, of course, over that dinner, I learned what the word enneagram meant.
Speaker D:And Suzanne and I, as both being twos, we just instantly clicked.
Speaker D:There was just sort of a relationship connection before I even knew anything about this tool.
Speaker D:And she said, well, it just so happens I'm going to be in Nashville in two weeks.
Speaker D:Weeks at a church, doing a staff retreat, kind of for a church staff.
Speaker D:And I said, well, what church?
Speaker D:Well, I knew the church.
Speaker D:I knew the pastor.
Speaker D:I said, I'm going to text him right now and see if I can sit in the back of the room just so I can kind of hear what it is that you do.
Speaker D:And that was the beginning for me.
Speaker D:And in that moment, it was kind of.
Speaker D:She was doing a know your number for that church staff.
Speaker D:I heard twos as the most probable number.
Speaker D:I think, like a lot of people, I encourage people when I teach.
Speaker D:You know, everybody's journey is different.
Speaker D:Some people kind of hear their number and boom.
Speaker D:I had to do a little bit of work with a couple of other numbers.
Speaker D:Two was always kind of leading, but I had to do a little bit of work around 3 and 9 and 4.
Speaker D:Honestly, those were the other ones that I had to kind of just, you know, eliminate off the list.
Speaker D:But so the enneagram for me began in relationship over chicken and potatoes at dinner in Florida.
Speaker D:And that was just, I think that, you know, that will resonate probably with other twos.
Speaker C:Were there truffles in the potatoes?
Speaker D:There were no truffles, so it was wonderful.
Speaker D:And no cilantro, especially if it's a.
Speaker B:Meal that I did not have to make.
Speaker B:I'm like, yes, yes, we're here for it.
Speaker D:Yes, we'll do it.
Speaker A:Hunter, I wonder if you could briefly just distinguish some.
Speaker A:You said initially you were looking at 3, 9, and 4.
Speaker A:Where were some of the two parts that were showing up in those for you and how you distinguished the difference?
Speaker D:Well, those numbers have so many different similarities, but for me, the places where I saw myself in those other numbers and three, I think just as a three living in America, I mean, as a.
Speaker D:As a human living in America, I'm just kind of.
Speaker D:We're swimming in three waters.
Speaker D:And I had kind of been raised by, you know, success oriented parents and had always been told to kind of conquer and charge the hill.
Speaker D:So, you know, I think like a lot of people, I just had to kind of wade through the cultural three just atmosphere that we all have as part of the layer to our onion.
Speaker D:For four, I'm a creative I love.
Speaker D:I'm drawn to art, I'm drawn to beauty.
Speaker D:So, you know, when you hear some of that described in four, I'm kind of like, oh man, I want to, I need to kick the tires on that.
Speaker D:But ultimately the motivations are, are those of a two.
Speaker D:But I had to kind of wade through some of the creative energy descriptions of force.
Speaker D:And then for nines, you know, nines and twos have a lot of similarities.
Speaker D:And we're, you know, I think we're all trying in our own ways to go along and get along and make you comfortable.
Speaker D:And if you've got a really strong opinion or impression, we're ready to go with it.
Speaker D:But the thing that really sealed the deal for me is when I heard Suzanne say at a later date, you know, nines are not always totally sure if their presence makes a big difference, right.
Speaker D:In this relationship, in this home, in this atmosphere, in this work, in this community.
Speaker D:The difference is twos.
Speaker D:We're still kind of merging some and we're still adapting and we're still going along and getting along, but we are sure that if you would just let us, we could make a huge impact in your life.
Speaker D:It's like that, you know, twos are not uncertain if their presence makes a big difference individually in a, in a one on one kind of relationship way.
Speaker D:I mean, I'm not sure how you ever got along without me.
Speaker D:Right.
Speaker D:But so that, for me, that was kind of the, the distinction between nine and two.
Speaker B:For me, I'm feeling a little called out right now.
Speaker A:I'm just.
Speaker D:Yeah, it's.
Speaker D:It hurt.
Speaker D:The one that hurts the most, you know, is usually the one.
Speaker B:So.
Speaker B:Hunter, I.
Speaker B:I don't know if this visual makes sense to you or not, but if you imagine the Enia river, right, we've got the big Enia river, capital E.
Speaker B:And then we've got all these Enia streams kind of flowing into the big river.
Speaker B:Just different schools of thought, different modalities for working with this tool.
Speaker B:What is the one or ones that you find yourself gravitating toward or that maybe you're trained in, certified in that you use the most in your work with others or in your personal life?
Speaker D:Yeah, I love that question.
Speaker D:You're right there.
Speaker D:One of the things I love about the system is it's not one of these systems that was discovered and produced in this kind of closed door setting where there's a universal set of authority about it.
Speaker D:It's kind of lots of different streams, as you mentioned, lots of different schools, lots of different teachers and practitioners have put their hands into it and developed their own ways of speaking about it and using it.
Speaker D: he came to California in the: Speaker D:And so I learned it in that setting of this is a narrative tradition, this is an oral tradition.
Speaker D:This is a tradition that is passed from teacher to student in mostly a spiritual direction oriented setting.
Speaker D:So I didn't come to it.
Speaker D:And I don't really participate with it in the realm of test, diagnostic testing, assessments, some of the newer ways to kind of experience it.
Speaker D:And it's not because I don't think those are great, wonderful and good.
Speaker D:I just, I still use it and teach it and think about it in the stream of kind of apprentice to student, narrative, oral tradition, spiritual direction.
Speaker D:I mean, the Enneagram in its really, its origins, it was rarely communicated about outside of some spiritual tradition as an overlay.
Speaker D:And you can find it, of course, in all sorts of spiritual traditions.
Speaker D:And what I like about that and really how I apply it in my life and use it and think about it and experience it in that kind of spiritual overlay stream is, I think it's most meaningful when you use it as a way to say, hey, you have a personality, you have a false self, if you will.
Speaker D:You have an Enneagram number.
Speaker D:It's wonderful, it's great.
Speaker D:Let's look at it, let's unpack that, but let's do that because we actually believe there is something deeper and truer to you.
Speaker D:We believe that there is an essence, a true self, a soul, maybe a Christ in you or a Christ in me.
Speaker D:So I do talk about it and think there's lots of good things to do in corporate America with it, and that's great and wonderful and people benefit all the time.
Speaker D:But I think it has the most meaning when it's applied with any spiritual tradition that says, let's talk about personality, so that we can make sure that personality is not blocking you from soul work, from essence work.
Speaker A:Man, I'm so grateful for that approach from you, Hunter.
Speaker A:So Hunter and I know each other.
Speaker A:We met years ago, and from day one, my sense was that of you, just your heart for how can you lead people to finding themselves, finding themselves coming home to themselves through this tool?
Speaker A:And I really sense that in you today and did back then.
Speaker A:So just.
Speaker A:Yes, thank you for just describing that.
Speaker A:Beautiful kind of lineage and your description how you inherited this.
Speaker A:Yeah man, thank you.
Speaker A:So getting into, yeah, definitely getting into some deeper parts of maybe your self concept.
Speaker A:We'd love to hear if you could off the top of your head, maybe.
Speaker A:What are five adjectives that you would use to, to best describe yourself?
Speaker D:Okay.
Speaker D:Interested.
Speaker D:And in all ways, you know, in, in you and what you're interested in.
Speaker D:In new things, old things.
Speaker D:Interested.
Speaker D:Curious.
Speaker D:I, I'm willing for my mind to be changed.
Speaker D:Like I'm, I'm interested.
Speaker D:I'm, I'm not so settled in what I think or believe about the world as to not be curious about what you think or believe about the world.
Speaker D:Sensitive.
Speaker D:And I mostly mean that in a bad way.
Speaker D:I, you know there's, there's a good to sensitive.
Speaker D:But when I'm using that word right here, I, I have to do a lot of work to sort of armor myself against the world.
Speaker D:It's like my natural bent is I can get my feelings hurt easily.
Speaker D:I can feel kind of wounded easily.
Speaker D:And I have to, that's part of my lifetime of work is bringing up thinking and you know, did that person really mean how I interpreted that to mean or why am I taking that so seriously?
Speaker D:So sensitive.
Speaker D:I would say engaged.
Speaker D:Like I'm in it with you.
Speaker D:You know, if you want to be in this, I'm in this, I'm in this relationship, I'm in this community.
Speaker D:You know, if we've met, if I've met somebody one time over lunch and I'm sending a follow up email about that meeting, I'll be like, well, I had a great time meeting my friend today.
Speaker D:And I'm thinking, you know, well, I just met them.
Speaker D:It's like you're a friend already.
Speaker D:I'm engaged with you.
Speaker D:I'm connected to you.
Speaker D:And the fifth word I would say, you know, this, maybe this is too much of a summary of sensitive.
Speaker D:But it's, you know, emotional.
Speaker D:I mean I get my feelings hurt easily, but I also connect to deep emotion easily.
Speaker D:And I think that's maybe the better angels and the better lights of that easily.
Speaker D:Woundedness, sensitivity is, I'm looking for emotional experiences.
Speaker D:I'm looking to feel something.
Speaker D:I'm looking to connect.
Speaker D:I'm looking for harm things in you and in the world.
Speaker A:Yeah, man.
Speaker A:Thanks for sharing those.
Speaker A:My initial question with the word engaged is what would happen for you if you weren't, if you weren't, if you weren't able to be that guy?
Speaker D:Yeah.
Speaker A:That was known for being engaging.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker D:Gosh I mean, you're asking kind of a core identity question, Seth.
Speaker D:I mean, that's my.
Speaker D:I mean, in some ways, my core sense of self is I am a.
Speaker D:I'm in the foxhole with you kind of person.
Speaker D:So if for some reason I wasn't, that couldn't be that.
Speaker D:Maybe I'll flip your question to when people don't let me be that for them.
Speaker D:Here's the problem, and this is one of the ugly sides of me.
Speaker D:And, you know, my two ness is it's like if I'm ready to be in the foxhole with you, but you just kind of reject again and again and again, or somehow you have not invited me in or you've held me at a distance, then kind of an uglier side is there's a little bit of like a vindictive like, well, I'm going to.
Speaker D:I'm going to totally turn off to you and divert all of my love and attention over here in a way that may be obvious to you, you.
Speaker D:How much you've lost.
Speaker D:You know, I don't.
Speaker D:That's one of the kind of parts of myself that is an opportunity for growth.
Speaker D:I.
Speaker D:It's like I, I think about it where enneagram twos, you know, and I resonate with this.
Speaker D:We.
Speaker D:We want to love.
Speaker D:We want to be loved, but people who are, in a way, make themselves unlovable and will not receive, receive or return or accept or sort of live into that love.
Speaker D:Those are the hardest people for me to love.
Speaker D:And in a way, it's like those are the people that get the cold version.
Speaker D:But it's, it's intentional.
Speaker D:It's, it's, you know, I've intentionally turned that love fountain off.
Speaker D:And that's a, That's a part of my work.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker C:And you.
Speaker C:We were talking off camera that you also practice some law.
Speaker C:Is that correct?
Speaker D:My first career was law, and I've kind of returned to it.
Speaker D:And so, yes, I'm an attorney.
Speaker D:And, you know, in a perfect enneagram two way, my father was an attorney.
Speaker D:I loved school environments.
Speaker D:When I graduated from college, I didn't really know exactly what I wanted to do, so I thought, let me just go into another kind of school setting and make community and make friends.
Speaker D:And my dad did, you know, so there's a lot of underdeveloped thinking that went into my vocational early choices.
Speaker D:But now it's, you know, God bless the broken road.
Speaker C:Sure.
Speaker C:Well, it just strikes me, I think a lot of people would not imagine a 2 doing that sort of thing.
Speaker D:Right.
Speaker C:It's a very intense job, and you.
Speaker C:You need to have some, like, resilience and.
Speaker C:And not get your feelings hurt and all these other things.
Speaker C:So talk.
Speaker C:Talk about that.
Speaker D:Well, 100%.
Speaker D:So now let me really tell you what I do.
Speaker D:I love it.
Speaker D:I am a trust attorney, so I found the little area of the law where I don't go to court, I don't have conflict.
Speaker D:I serve as trustee.
Speaker D:When people leave money to their children and grandchildren, they appoint me as trustee to spend and shepherd those resources for those next generations.
Speaker D:So it's actually perfect for kind of my wiring.
Speaker D:So I found my little spot inside of the legal world.
Speaker B:So nobody is shouting objection.
Speaker B:When you're done speaking.
Speaker D:No, no, I'm.
Speaker D:No, no, I'm.
Speaker D:I'm looking after my widows and orphans.
Speaker D:It's wonderful.
Speaker C:That's beautiful.
Speaker C:Wow.
Speaker A:That's awesome, man.
Speaker B:I'm wondering.
Speaker B:I'm curious about the.
Speaker B:When you said sensitive, you said.
Speaker B:I'm talking about the bad kind of sensitive.
Speaker B:I want to hear more about that.
Speaker B:And I also am wondering if there's anything about pride that might connect there.
Speaker B:And if so, like, how do you.
Speaker B:How do you work with that practically?
Speaker B:What's that inner work like for you?
Speaker D:Yeah, that's a great question.
Speaker D:I mean, because that's kind of the crux of, I think, my lifetime of work with this tool.
Speaker D:And so, you know, the.
Speaker D:The bad part.
Speaker D:And I use that, you know, in a sense, I hate that word.
Speaker D:But, you know, as we're speaking, the bad part of that sensitivity for me is mostly connected to, like you said, pride, where it's like, I know that I've done something for somebody.
Speaker D:I know that I've shown up for somebody.
Speaker D:I know that I'm.
Speaker D:I'm there for somebody.
Speaker D:But in some moment of time, I don't feel seen or loved or noticed or recognized or appreciated by them.
Speaker D:And so that kind of trick triggers this sensitivity of almost of an offense, of a wound in some ways.
Speaker D:And so the work for me, you know, the.
Speaker D:We talk about the passions a lot with the Enneagram, Right.
Speaker D:If you like, go to a know your numbers seminar.
Speaker D:You know, you learn that pride is the passion for twos.
Speaker D:And I learned that early.
Speaker D:What I did not learn early was that humility is the virtue, and the virtue is always the opposite of the passion for each of the nine numbers.
Speaker D:And the virtue is the truer thing.
Speaker D:The virtue is the thing that was there initially, that was then covered by the passion.
Speaker D:So inside of me, somewhere Deep down is humility.
Speaker D:And of course, humility is not the, you know, enneagram.
Speaker D:Twos aren't prideful in that, you know, I need you to know what kind of car I drive or see my trophies.
Speaker D:But there's that pride of place and pride of position and pride of self.
Speaker D:And so the humility is I.
Speaker D:Every day my work is recognizing that what you really want is you want a mutual relationship with me, not a power dynamic relationship with me where I'm elevated as the helper and the fixer and you're the helped and the fixed.
Speaker D:You actually would like to have a reciprocal mutual give and take.
Speaker D:You know, we're in this together relationship and I have to bring up humility to do that.
Speaker D:And so for me, some of it's like, very, very practical.
Speaker D:I mean, I'll go to lunch with people or dinner, and here's when I know that I'm not doing my work.
Speaker D:Here's when I know that I'm like in the pride spiral is at the end of the lunch or dinner, they say to me, gosh, Hunter, this was so nice, but all we did is talk about me.
Speaker D:You know, next time when we get together, I want to know what's going on in your life.
Speaker D:And what they're really saying by using those nice, friendly words is, this was not mutual.
Speaker D:This was not an exchange.
Speaker D:This was not.
Speaker D:We did not meet each other relationally.
Speaker D:Today.
Speaker D:You, you know, you kind of presented as the guru or the sage or the helper or the interested one, but you didn't humble yourself to also be known and insane.
Speaker D:And that's my lifetime of work.
Speaker B:Yeah, I.
Speaker B:And just to piggyback, I wonder if you find this to be true for you.
Speaker B:I have been exploring this idea of curated vulnerability where it's like, I get to be vulnerable enough that you feel close to me and that makes me feel connected to you.
Speaker B:But I have not actually been vulnerable to the point that, like, I feel exposed and I have to trust you with that.
Speaker B:Does that resonate for you?
Speaker D:Oh, yeah.
Speaker D:Oh, totally.
Speaker D:I mean, the shadow that we face all the time is too, is, you know, we.
Speaker D:We are the glue players and the centerpieces of relationships and community.
Speaker D:But the problem is I.
Speaker D:I can just as easily choose to do that in a way that's loving and freeing and in a way that's manipulative and controlling.
Speaker D:And that sort of manipulation is, you know, hidden in some ways.
Speaker D:I'll tell you an example where it came up.
Speaker D:Something similar came up recently to me.
Speaker D:So I'M I have a therapist.
Speaker D:His name is Brian.
Speaker D:He's wonderful.
Speaker D:I've had him for the last three years.
Speaker D:He's my favorite therapist I've ever had.
Speaker D:And we've been doing a lot of work together.
Speaker D:And it's also some of the things that we were specifically kind of focused on of, you know, we've.
Speaker D:We've seen some growth, and some of those seasons have kind of flipped.
Speaker D:And so I've just been feeling like, you know what?
Speaker D:This is a good moment for kind of a pause.
Speaker D:You know, we'll return.
Speaker D:We go through seasons of seeing each other regularly and pausing.
Speaker D:And so I go in to see Brian one day, and I'm like, hey, Brian, this has been great.
Speaker D:You've been so wonderful.
Speaker D:Oh, my goodness.
Speaker D:I love you.
Speaker D:I love seeing you.
Speaker D:I'm thinking that this would be a good moment to kind of pause therapy for a minute, and we can return to it.
Speaker D:You know, what do you think?
Speaker D:What?
Speaker D:You know, does that feel right to you?
Speaker D:And he's like, do you see how you're managing me?
Speaker D:Like, you're trying to get.
Speaker D:You're trying to ask me to give you permission to quit therapies.
Speaker D:Like, you.
Speaker D:You can just tell me that you want to stop and pause, and we will.
Speaker D:But the.
Speaker D:So the challenge is that is too.
Speaker D:I think we think sometimes that people don't notice the ways in which we're managing them, but they do.
Speaker D:And so I'm starting to try to notice that and notice the times in which I'm almost manipulating the situation, not in an evil, mean way, but in a way where it's like I'm trying to almost make the other person feel like it's their idea, when really I can just say what I want and I can be true to myself and own it, and I need to learn to own it more.
Speaker B:It's a good word.
Speaker B:That's a good word.
Speaker C:Wow.
Speaker B:Well, yeah.
Speaker B:And it's manipulation in service of protection, right?
Speaker D:Yeah, it is.
Speaker D:It is always.
Speaker C:So, as I'm hearing you talk, I keep seeing the lines and the dynamics of the lines.
Speaker C:How do you.
Speaker C:For, like, 8 and 4, right?
Speaker C:How do you see those happen in your relationships?
Speaker C:What's that like for you?
Speaker D:Eight is the only place where I can borrow the word no.
Speaker D:And eight is a good place for me.
Speaker D:Eight is a place for me where I can find boundaries in relationships.
Speaker D:I can make sure that there is a line between me and the other person.
Speaker D:So 8 is a really good spot for me.
Speaker D:You know, there are times, of course, where I can fall into sort of the anger way of using eight, but because I know that I have that line and that access point to 8, I'm learning to train myself, to use it, to keep boundaries.
Speaker D:And to say no.
Speaker D:4 for me is in the best ways.
Speaker D:That's where I really lean into creativity.
Speaker D:That's where I feel comfortable being alone.
Speaker D:You know, one of the things that I actually like, I love opportunities where I have to, for a day or a weekend, you know, travel somewhere, be somewhere on my own, be creative, not be relational.
Speaker D:You know, I can find some good places of self and alone time and creativity in that four place.
Speaker C:That's great.
Speaker C:There's so many more questions, and it's been great hearing from you.
Speaker C:And so a couple more questions.
Speaker C:We're trying to keep these interviews bite sized for the listener.
Speaker C:So with your specific perspective as a two as.
Speaker C:As Hunter.
Speaker C:Right.
Speaker C:What's a word of caution?
Speaker C:Something that you've had to learn the hard way that you would.
Speaker C:An advice that you would give to the listener.
Speaker D:Yeah.
Speaker D:Gosh, there's a long list.
Speaker D:Here's one thing.
Speaker D:Sometimes I'm too much for people.
Speaker D:And what I mean by that is some people that I.
Speaker D:When I'm kind of in an insecure, needy place, I.
Speaker D:I sometimes make a relationship in my life more than it should be, and I begin to become so enmeshed in that other person's life that sometimes they feel like they can't breathe.
Speaker D:And that happened to me a lot in college.
Speaker D:And I lost some friends, lost some really good friends in that kind of younger sense and place and time of self where I just.
Speaker D:It's like I was giving so much that it was smothering and the other person didn't really have room to bring themselves to the relationship again.
Speaker D:It didn't feel probably mutual to them.
Speaker D:It didn't feel like they had an opportunity to contribute.
Speaker D:So I think one of the places that I watch, and hopefully with each passing day, I'm little bit better than I was the day before.
Speaker D:But I have to watch being too much in people's lives and kind of being too heavy or too smothering and then the last, you know, the other thing that kind of easily comes to mind, unfortunately, is, you know, twos get tired too.
Speaker D:You know, so we give and we do and we help, and it's wonderful.
Speaker D:And we're in relationship, but just like everybody else, we get tired.
Speaker D:And when we get tired, we feel underappreciated.
Speaker D:And when we feel underappreciated, we martyr and Then we become victims, and it's ugly, and nobody likes a martyring victim.
Speaker D:And it.
Speaker D:It's sort of like, you know, people are looking at you, thinking, get off the cross.
Speaker D:We need the nails.
Speaker D:You know, it's like, why are we.
Speaker D:You know?
Speaker D:And it's just not.
Speaker D:It's not pretty.
Speaker D:It's not.
Speaker D:It's not appealing.
Speaker D:It's not attractive.
Speaker D:So I tried to catch myself in that cycle as well.
Speaker C:That's great.
Speaker A:Can I.
Speaker B:Okay.
Speaker B:I need to push back on this a little bit, though.
Speaker B:And it's not because I disagree with you, but my experience as a female, too, might be slightly different than yours.
Speaker D:Sure.
Speaker B:I want to say this.
Speaker B:Like, I think for me, as a female, one of the things that I have to tell myself is that I am not here to be attractive to everybody.
Speaker B:I am not here to be someone who pleases you all the time.
Speaker B:And so that is part of my work to do.
Speaker B:I hear what you're saying.
Speaker B:Healthy.
Speaker B:It's not healthy for those relationships.
Speaker D:Right.
Speaker B:But you know, what?
Speaker B:If it's my.
Speaker B:If it's my turn.
Speaker D:That's right.
Speaker D:That's right.
Speaker D:We can be needy, too.
Speaker D:Take it or leave it, you know?
Speaker D:Yeah.
Speaker B:I'm not here for your pleasure only and for your peace only.
Speaker B:I'm here for mine as well.
Speaker D:That's true.
Speaker D:That's a good word.
Speaker C:That's great.
Speaker D:Need to write that in my journal.
Speaker D:Yes.
Speaker A:Well, Hunter, man, we are so grateful and appreciative of just the personal places that you took us in our time together.
Speaker A:Really value you kind of just giving us some insight into the person behind the two.
Speaker A:I think it was really refreshing and it was really humanizing, and I think that's a specialty of twos.
Speaker A:But just really, really appreciate you talking about some personal things.
Speaker A:It was meaningful and just to kind of.
Speaker A:I know we haven't caught up for a while, so this was kind of our version of that.
Speaker A:I know.
Speaker D:It's so fun to catch up with you and so fun to be a part of this conversation.
Speaker D:Conversation.
Speaker D:I love it and have loved getting to speak with you all.
Speaker D:Thanks so much.
Speaker B:Thanks so much, Hunter.
Speaker A:Yeah, absolutely.
Speaker A:For people listening, where could.
Speaker A:If they want to hear more about you and what you do with the Enneagram, where could people find you?
Speaker D:You can find me at Enneagram Hunter.
Speaker D:Enneagram Hunter.
Speaker D:On Instagram, Internet, Facebook, all the things.
Speaker D: e got a book coming in May of: Speaker D:So that's coming so Stay tuned on that.
Speaker D:And then finally, you can find me on Suzanne Stabile's Life in the Trinity ministry website.
Speaker D:I teach an annual cohort there about the enneagram and contemplative spirituality.
Speaker D:So you can come join me in Dallas.
Speaker C:That's amazing.
Speaker A:Amazing.
Speaker C:Awesome.
Speaker C:Well, thank you again.
Speaker C:Thank you so much again, Hunter.
Speaker C:Really appreciate you.
Speaker D:Thank you all.
Speaker C:Alrighty.
Speaker A:Type.
Speaker D:Talk.
Speaker A:Movie.
Speaker D:Talk about the type.
Speaker A:Well, there you have it.
Speaker A:We did that thing we do when we talk with people and people talk with us and stuff happens on a recording.
Speaker A:Now, Hunter is a really lovely person.
Speaker A:I don't.
Speaker A:You guys have not met him, right?
Speaker C:I've not.
Speaker A:In person, in real life.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker A:He really, you know, we've touched on this briefly because it is limited, you know, in.
Speaker A:In.
Speaker A:In your limited heuristic for typing.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:But vibe does play in.
Speaker A:And I would say from all my experiences with Hunter, his vibe is.
Speaker A:Is just a noticeable too, you know, he's just a really, really lovely guy.
Speaker A:And you always walk away feeling encouraged and uplifted and seen by being with him.
Speaker C:Did you say five?
Speaker A:No, I'm losing it.
Speaker A:He's hearing different stuff even.
Speaker B:Are you sure that was Benadryl?
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker C:Listener.
Speaker C:I have a really severe case of poison ivy, so I'm a bit out of it.
Speaker C:So you're not going to hear my normal joyous attitude on this podcast.
Speaker A:Yeah, we're so used to that and familiar with that one.
Speaker C:So used to it.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker C:But, you know, you limit me to that joyous attitude.
Speaker C:You know, be prepared to be disappointed.
Speaker B:It's a stereotype for four.
Speaker B:We're not really, really in relationship with you.
Speaker C:No, my true, essential self is joyous.
Speaker C:So, anyways, let's talk a little bit about what we noticed, what we enjoyed about how the school's talked about, too, and just our own experiences.
Speaker C:Lindsay, you want to start?
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:Gosh.
Speaker B:As I was listening back to this episode, I felt so embarrassed because when we recorded with Hunter, you know, I was like, I am definitely a two and just viewing everything that the teacher.
Speaker B:And even, you know, it may get edited out, I think, but even the teachers sometimes referencing me or kind of talking to me as a two, you know, is there.
Speaker B:And, yeah, it was just really interesting and embarrassing to go back and listen to it.
Speaker B:But attunement, I think, was a word that lifted for me from our narrative friends.
Speaker B:I think Christopher talked about it, but he was talking about attune, being characterized by empathy, compassion, and attunement.
Speaker B:And I just.
Speaker B:I think in my mind, it's like I see twos as like a radio and it's like they're listening to the person and then they're like dialing the knobs to try to tune into the frequency that they're experiencing.
Speaker B:And the ways that that can be.
Speaker B:Like you were saying Abram with Hunter, you know, feeling so heard and seen.
Speaker B:Like I am dialed into you, but then getting lost in that.
Speaker B:Like now I'm so dialed into you.
Speaker B:I'm so attuned to you.
Speaker B:I don't really know what frequency I'm vibrating at.
Speaker B:Like this radio analogy is going to break down.
Speaker B:But you get what I'm saying.
Speaker B:And the word yes.
Speaker B:They were talking about a yes.
Speaker B:That happens.
Speaker B:And I think that.
Speaker B:That, you know, I was kind of thinking about why I resonate so much and resonated with two for so long.
Speaker B:Is that similarity between twos and sevens?
Speaker B:There's just an instant yes, yes.
Speaker B:And it looks different between them, but.
Speaker B:But it's there for both types.
Speaker A:The yes.
Speaker A:Is that what you mean?
Speaker B:The yes?
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:And I would say there's even a yes for nines as well.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:I mean, I think this is one of the ways that the Risa Hudson approach categorizes that grouping in the positive outlook.
Speaker A:Triadic.
Speaker A:Triadic grouping.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:There is a.
Speaker A:Just more of a positivity I think in general about.
Speaker A:And it's not on positivity, you know, as a marker for type isn't only in the 2, 7, 9.
Speaker A:I think there is in threeness, none in four.
Speaker A:I'm kidding.
Speaker A:That's a stereotype.
Speaker A:But.
Speaker A:But yeah, I think that's a marker as well for 2, 7, but 9.
Speaker A:Yes quality.
Speaker B:What are you saying yes to, do you think?
Speaker A:Well, it's more of a passive yes in that, you know, there's.
Speaker A:There's.
Speaker A:Yeah, I'll do it because I want you to be okay.
Speaker A:You know, I don't want you get in the way.
Speaker A:You know, I think that's the yes quality from.
Speaker A:From nine.
Speaker A:Whereas the.
Speaker A:The yes quality from two.
Speaker A:There.
Speaker A:There's.
Speaker A:There is a yes, but it's.
Speaker A:It's slightly.
Speaker A:The motivation is.
Speaker A:Is a bit different, I guess.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker C:The way I say it is like the yes from a 2 is.
Speaker C:Is the ability to.
Speaker C:How best.
Speaker C:How best to connect with someone than to be like them to.
Speaker C:To.
Speaker C:Because the more you agree with someone, the more they like you.
Speaker C:You know, where the nine.
Speaker C:That sort of yes is a.
Speaker C:Is an.
Speaker C:Is a way to not disrupt the relationship and not to put themselves in a situation.
Speaker C:Where they have to distinguish themselves in some regard.
Speaker C:It's a folding in to relationship instead of attaching in some form.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:Does that feel true?
Speaker A:I was going to say that reminded me of what I think.
Speaker A:I forget actually if it was Mario or mj.
Speaker A:But in describing the line points for two, where the point.
Speaker A:The line to four is it's, you know, resisting being too unique because then I can't connect to you there.
Speaker A:We connect based on similarity, and it's hard to establish their own identity in that way.
Speaker A:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker A:But at the same time, I think there's a.
Speaker A:There's a nine quality does the same thing.
Speaker A:It's just pretty.
Speaker A:There's.
Speaker A:There's similarity there where if I'm too distinguished as well, then this connection won't be maintained.
Speaker A:And I need you to like me.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:But it's more so I need you to like yourself because I'm mirroring back what I'm hearing in you.
Speaker A:Whereas I think the 2 is I need you to like me still.
Speaker A:And so that's based on how much of me I'm giving to you.
Speaker A:And there's something still more tangible in how they're connecting with people than nineness.
Speaker A:I think.
Speaker B:I think too, you know that optimism triad we were talking about, the two sevens, nines.
Speaker B:I think part of the optimism relationally is I'm going to see the best about you.
Speaker B:And that's a beautiful thing in relationships and can also get all of them into trouble at times relationally.
Speaker B:So I think that that is another reason why there can be some mistyping and confusion is because they all have an ability to make people feel good, you know, and bad.
Speaker B:But, yeah, about two sevens and nines, a lot of people will say they made me feel very much comfortable or like I could be myself or accepted or nurtured or cared for, seen, heard, valued.
Speaker B:All those things you'll hear in relationships with those types.
Speaker B:So that.
Speaker B:That kind of makes me wonder about how.
Speaker B:How you differentiate.
Speaker B:And one thing that I heard Hunter say was he was talking about, oh, it wasn't.
Speaker B:Sorry, it wasn't Hunter.
Speaker B:It was Christopher.
Speaker B:Christopher was saying that there's a mental attention that is external and it's on meeting other people's needs.
Speaker B:And I think, you know, we talked about this in the.
Speaker B:The episode where we talked about me realizing I was a seven, is that that was happening for me in a specific season of my life.
Speaker B:But when I think about those words, it was really helpful for me to think about those words.
Speaker B:Mental attention.
Speaker B:What my mental attention is Going to as a 7 is not external.
Speaker B:It's not on meeting other people's needs.
Speaker B:It's on meeting my own needs.
Speaker B:And I'll include you in that.
Speaker B:Like, if I have to or if I love you enough to do that, then I'll do like.
Speaker B:This is a chosen attachment.
Speaker B:I recognize my responsibilities, and it's a.
Speaker B:It's a joy and a pleasure to meet your needs if you're one of my chosen attachments.
Speaker B:But my mental attention does not go there first.
Speaker B:It goes here first.
Speaker B:Does that make sense?
Speaker A:Which is which direction?
Speaker A:Because we're not watching.
Speaker B:Oh.
Speaker B:Cause it's an internal mental attention first.
Speaker C:There's different versions of this, and maybe the primary word there is first.
Speaker C:I've seen Sevens do this thing where it's like, do everything possible to keep everyone else happy.
Speaker C:And that seems like the first response, but it still is for so that I can do my thing and I don't have to be weighed down by your feelings and your issues and whatever problem.
Speaker C:If you aren't happy, if you aren't entertained, then that's my problem.
Speaker C:Problem to deal with.
Speaker C:So if I can just get you guys entertained, then I can have my autonomy back on some level.
Speaker C:But where I feel like twos, the being involved is to stay involved and not necessarily to retract oneself.
Speaker C:And I think that's where that.
Speaker C:I mean, the narrative talked about the phrase.
Speaker C:We hear a lot of giving to get.
Speaker C:And there's some.
Speaker C:I know, Lindsay, you had some issues with that phrase.
Speaker C:I think Christopher kind of nuanced it a little bit, but it's worth talking about.
Speaker C:I think of we all give to get in different ways.
Speaker C:But I wonder.
Speaker C:I don't know if this is a factual statement.
Speaker C:I wonder if twos.
Speaker C:It feels more personal and attached because it's like very immediate in some ways obvious of I'm doing this thing to get a specific reaction to make myself feel more connected.
Speaker C:So it's just more at close quarters.
Speaker C:So maybe we just see it more.
Speaker C:I'm floating that out as a theory, not as a fact, but yeah, could be entirely wrong.
Speaker C:So, yeah.
Speaker C:What do you all think of just that phrase and your relationship to it?
Speaker A:There is, I think, a quality of, you know, when we're.
Speaker A:When we're thinking about the enneagram from.
Speaker A:From the.
Speaker A:The center's perspective.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:And we look at the.
Speaker A:The heart types.
Speaker A:I feel like there's a similarity that comes across around it.
Speaker A:It seems as though the.
Speaker A:The heart types.
Speaker A:If you will get communicated as more int.
Speaker A:Consciously or Intentionally doing the things they're doing for connection or for out feeling outstanding or success.
Speaker A:Like I'm like threes.
Speaker A:The stereotype is around deception.
Speaker A:I'm lying to you, I'm doing it on purpose.
Speaker A:Whereas that's actually more so I'm.
Speaker A:I don't know that I am identified with the role I'm playing right now.
Speaker A:And that's where the stereotype, that's what that I, that I feel like is, is where the stereotype hangs out for the, for the heart types where like the twos don't always recognize or, or mean to be giving to get right.
Speaker A:And you're right, everybody does that.
Speaker A:But it's not a conscious thing they're doing to get their way.
Speaker A:Sure, they, they can do that and so can I.
Speaker A:It's just, it's not as.
Speaker A:That's the stereotype.
Speaker A:That's why it's a stereotype.
Speaker A:It's.
Speaker A:It's not as purposefully done as it sounds like, you know, in the, in the descriptions.
Speaker A:And I think that's why certain types.
Speaker C:Can get bad raps and I, and we're talking a little bit more on the negative side right now.
Speaker C:But I wonder if it's like there's, there's a level of give to get and then it becomes dependence that I need you in order to make me feel okay.
Speaker C:Which again all types can do in certain ways.
Speaker C:But on the perhaps the more mature side of things, it's like in this scenario there's an exchange of I'm going to do this thing for you in hopes that it will be returned in some way or like I do a good deed because it makes me feel good.
Speaker C:There's nothing wrong with that.
Speaker C:And I think that also kind of points to how there can be some mistyping happening with tos and navigating or social of this sort of attuning to others expecting a give and take of favors of communication, that sort of thing.
Speaker C:So yeah, none of these are bad in and of themselves.
Speaker C:It's just how it's used and how much it's used.
Speaker A:Right?
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:That's why I feel like it's really important to think of them.
Speaker A:What is the primary.
Speaker A:If we're looking at a single word, say just for example, if we take awareness to actions word right.
Speaker A:For around connection, something wrong connection.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:But there is a commitment, the subconscious commitment to connection that twos more so have.
Speaker A:And so without awareness that commitment connect to connection is self suppression.
Speaker A:And so I'm willing to do whatever it takes to make sure that's happening for me because that's how I feel most like me.
Speaker A:And so when I don't feel connected, I'm willing to sacrifice something about me to.
Speaker A:To get that, to maintain it.
Speaker A:Whereas, you know, if you're.
Speaker A:It's one of the ways to, I think, recognize if you are or aren't a 2 connection's important to me, but I'm not willing to sacrifice, you know, certain things to get it.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker C:At the expense of your piece, for instance.
Speaker A:Exactly.
Speaker A:Exactly.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:That's not the thing.
Speaker B:That's not the thing you're overly attached to, for sure.
Speaker B:Is something else.
Speaker A:And Michael was talking about how twos at their best, they encourage the best in other people, whereas when they're at their worst, they're taking you hostage to make sure that they're okay.
Speaker A:Because I need to feel connected to something because that's how I know myself.
Speaker B:How I know myself.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:It's hard to know myself when I'm not in relationship with something or someone else that is dependent on me to know my own value.
Speaker A:It just reminded me of something that Hunter said, quoting Suzanne Stabile, that the difference between twos and nines is twos have this confidence of, like, I know what I have to offer can make your life better, you know, and there's not.
Speaker A:There tends to not be that level of confidence when it comes to nines.
Speaker A:You know, I would say that I actually do have something that can make your life better, but in general, that is not what I'm thinking about when I'm walking into a room.
Speaker A:Like, I'm not here to better your life or you need me, you know?
Speaker B:Well, to be fair, I don't think twos are thinking about it either.
Speaker A:Sure.
Speaker B:There's one thing I wanted to say two things.
Speaker B:The first thing is I think it's really helpful, especially in light of the give, to get to remember that every two at some point received the message.
Speaker B:When I give this, I'm rewarded by having a basic need met.
Speaker B:And when that message gets reinforced over and over and over, you know, twos will build an attachment around that.
Speaker B:And so I find that to be just a helpful way to be patient with twos as they work that out.
Speaker B:Because it's like, this is about getting basic needs met, and all of us can relate to that.
Speaker B:It's a shortcut.
Speaker B:It's a shortcut for getting basic needs met.
Speaker B:And so a lot of patients, as they're bringing.
Speaker B:As we're all bringing conscious awareness to these ways that we just.
Speaker B:This is how my brain learned to get this need met, period.
Speaker B:It doesn't have to be that deep, you know, it doesn't have to be.
Speaker B:This person is taking advantage of me and they're, you know, invading my life and it's just this awful thing.
Speaker B:It's like, oh, there's basic needs they need met and just be patient.
Speaker B:The other thing I wondered is how would you know if you're quote unquote, codependent or if you're a too who's overly attached to getting identity from connection?
Speaker C:It's a good question.
Speaker C:I think my initial gut response, and I reserve the right to change my opinion later, but it's codependency in Tunis.
Speaker C:Of course, there's a lot in common and every type can have codependence, which makes me think of how are you going about fulfilling that need of codependence?
Speaker C:Whatever codependence is getting for you is in the.
Speaker C:Was going to be in the flavor of your type.
Speaker C:So that's just a lot to pick apart.
Speaker C:And I think that have to be an individual conversation.
Speaker C:But my, my initial thought is it's codependent.
Speaker C:Codependence is going to be done differently depending on what your type strategy is.
Speaker C:But yeah, of course there's a lot of crossover with, you know, that two ness and codependence, so might be a little bit stickier.
Speaker C:But regardless, like, maybe you don't need a clear line as much as, like, here's the issue that keeps happening.
Speaker C:So let's just solve that issue.
Speaker C:Regardless of which label fits in what category, that would be my answer.
Speaker B:Yeah, I guess I'm just wondering, you know, because when I was in that two space, I did some work with codependency and read some books and try to kind of figure that piece of the puzzle out, thinking that it would contribute to a healthier display, a healthier way of holding my twoness.
Speaker B:I'll say it that way.
Speaker B:Maybe there's mistyping happening there.
Speaker C:Yeah, I think so.
Speaker C:And I think that in some ways leads us to a conversation about boundaries, of we all struggle with boundaries in different ways.
Speaker C:You know, some of us have too many, some of us have too few.
Speaker C:Some of us have weird ones that shouldn't be.
Speaker C:And I think in like the two and nineness thing, that's.
Speaker C:That's another thing that came up.
Speaker C:And then, you know, Lindsay, what you were.
Speaker C:What we talked about in your episode of your certain people were saying you had too many boundaries.
Speaker C:Right?
Speaker C:So.
Speaker C:And part of me just feels like that's Just a larger conversation.
Speaker C:But when it comes to codependency, it is just, it's just like not clear boundaries and not a clear sense of self or a self that is, you know, mature and self contained.
Speaker B:Containment.
Speaker B:Containment is a great word for twos.
Speaker B:Something that I had seen or read somewhere.
Speaker B:I wish I could cite that source.
Speaker B:But in studying 2Ness, working with 2Ness, containment of one's own emotions, you know, this idea that I can have my emotions and they can be my emotions and they can be different than your emotions and we can still be okay.
Speaker B:Or containment of information.
Speaker B:This is my information and I feel a real strong need to share it and help someone and offer myself in this way.
Speaker B:Because I just know that if I just share this, this thing with you, it's going to make your life better.
Speaker B:And it's like practice containment.
Speaker B:You're not being asked for that.
Speaker B:I just thought it was really, really useful and helpful.
Speaker B:And I do also want to address.
Speaker B:I think that a lot of times one of the most painful messages that I received when I was in that two space was when people would say to me, yes, you want connection, but you just have to believe that you already have it.
Speaker B:I can understand now why, like why that gets said, because what's being pointed to is connection with yourself is always available.
Speaker B:But I think that if you're a two and you're experiencing pain around loss of connection or broken relationships, than to be told, well, when you're feeling upset, frustrated and you're striving to feel connected, because we all need connection because we're all humans and it's healthy to have connection and you're not getting that and it's not reciprocated, that is a valid and painful experience.
Speaker B:And so just being told just believe that you already have connection is unhelpful and insensitive, quite frankly.
Speaker B:And so giving tools for someone who's in that space that validate the very real pain for twos of relational loss.
Speaker B:And it's painful for everybody.
Speaker B:But when that is the basic need that you're trying to get met and none of your devices and your tools are working and you're lonely and you're without that basic need being met, skill building around what it looks like to be a source of connection for yourself is what's helpful, not platitudes about that.
Speaker C:And I think to your point there, it's like why in some ways I struggle with like when people say forest just need to really, they already are unique and that that doesn't work for me.
Speaker C:And it's like you already are connected to and it's coming from a, you know, a good, well meaning place.
Speaker C:But it, what's, what's better, I think is like, oh, so you're not feeling connected.
Speaker C:Right.
Speaker C:You're not feeling your impact on the world for some reason.
Speaker C:Why is that?
Speaker C:And let's go into the details of that.
Speaker C:And I mean, Hunter mentioned the whole going out to coffee with someone and managing the whole interaction such that he never has to be vulnerable.
Speaker C:I relate to that too, for sure.
Speaker C:Just trying harder to feel connected doesn't work.
Speaker C:You have to do something different.
Speaker C:And so that's going to require a risk, that's going to require some vulnerability to be messy in, in that coffee meetup, you know, to be like, I'm gonna talk about myself and let them ask me questions.
Speaker C:And so it, it's.
Speaker C:It's not.
Speaker C:Yeah, I just, I just.
Speaker C:When people are just like, just try harder is.
Speaker C:Is what I end up hearing when we're like, just the peace is within yourself.
Speaker C:The, you know, the uniqueness is within you.
Speaker C:You are, you are connected.
Speaker C:It's okay.
Speaker C:But like, it doesn't feel like it.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker C:And it's more actionable when you can actually do something in the direction of, oh, I see.
Speaker C:This thing is keeping me from the thing that I want to feel.
Speaker C:How can I do it differently such that I can feel it more, Much more empowering.
Speaker B:I will also say, to be fair, I think sometimes someone needs to be brave enough to say the thing they know is gonna really piss us off.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:That can be helpful too.
Speaker B:So maybe in some ways just saying the thing that creak you and I are both saying, oh, it's so frustrating when people say that.
Speaker B:Well, the frustration around hearing that did make me more curious about what it meant and what it looked like.
Speaker B:So I guess I do wanna caveat that a little bit and say, yeah, sometimes it is okay to just say a thing that someone's not gonna understand the first time they hear it, or it's not gonna have legs the first time they hear it.
Speaker B:And being willing to be a person that someone can safely just be like, oh, why are you saying this to me?
Speaker B:That's so annoying.
Speaker B:And be like, because it's wise and you can be mad at me about it, but I'm just gonna keep saying like the truth to you.
Speaker B:Does that make sense?
Speaker C:Yeah, it can be a starting point for sure.
Speaker C:But that saying, that's not gonna solve anything really without the next steps.
Speaker C:I do want to touch on real quick, Lindsay, of when Hunter said the curated vulnerability, at the time you were still a quote, unquote 2, and you said you really related that you felt called out by that.
Speaker C:Have you been able to reframe that as seven?
Speaker B:I did put that in my notes too.
Speaker B:It's bothered me so much.
Speaker B:I've thought about it so much, what I meant by that and how it felt true through the lens of two and still feels true through the lens of seven.
Speaker B:Like why, why, why, why, why, why, why?
Speaker B:I think through the lens of two, it felt true because I really want.
Speaker B:I really want other people to feel safe with me.
Speaker B:That's a value that I have because I think people deserve to feel safe and have safe places.
Speaker B:And so what that requires is sometimes you put yourself on the back burner and sometimes you are also wanting to be relatable so that people can feel safe.
Speaker B:So it's a curated vulnerability in the sense that I want to share this with you because if you can relate, I sense that maybe you need a safe, safe landing place.
Speaker B:And so maybe if I can relate to you, then I want to do that.
Speaker B:But I think that through the 7ish lens, it feels like truer on a deeper level because I think that as I have gotten really honest with myself, I think I am very deeply afraid of emotional vulnerability.
Speaker B:And part of this desire to be a safe place for other people is because I'm seeking a safe place for myself.
Speaker B:Yeah, it's a.
Speaker B:I just don't really want you to see these parts of me, period.
Speaker B:It's not anything as deep as I was making it through the Jewish lens.
Speaker B:It's just.
Speaker B:That's a bummer.
Speaker B:Also, it's embarrassing.
Speaker B:Also.
Speaker B:That's gonna harsh the vibe.
Speaker B:Or you're just not gonna like me anymore if I reveal this or you're gonna be mad at me or you're gonna distrust me.
Speaker B:So, like, let's just not.
Speaker B:We'll just not harsh the vibe.
Speaker C:Feels like a seven thing.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker C:And also a lot of what you're saying is very navigating, very social.
Speaker C:I only show certain parts of myself to certain people as a way of controlling my image, which can also in some schools would be a heart center thing, which is something we could pull apart later.
Speaker B:But sure.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:And I think too people are impressed by emotional vulnerability.
Speaker B:And that's something to be aware of too, is that's.
Speaker B:I think where this phrase curated vulnerability is.
Speaker B:It's like, well, can I be emotionally vulnerable?
Speaker B:And I feel like I'm being Super emotionally vulnerable.
Speaker B:Saying this right now.
Speaker B:I don't like it.
Speaker B:I want.
Speaker B:I just don't want to say it, but I'm just gonna go.
Speaker B:Go.
Speaker B:Okay.
Speaker B:Can I be emotionally vulnerable enough to.
Speaker B:To be accepted here and to be impressive here, but not actually have.
Speaker B:You know me?
Speaker A:Well, that's.
Speaker B:That's vipar.
Speaker B:Sure.
Speaker A:But.
Speaker A:But that's where you have some practice of.
Speaker A:My value isn't contingent on whether or not I'm okay after I say this.
Speaker A:It's not in your hands, and so I'm saying it whether or not you like it.
Speaker C:And I've often said, like, people mistake my authenticity for vulnerability and my depth for intimacy.
Speaker C:And there are very clear distinctions in my head for what that looks like and what that means.
Speaker C:So as we're kind of.
Speaker C:I know we need to do the mist.
Speaker C:Do a little bit more mistyping stuff.
Speaker C:We need to talk about the quote, but I'd love to.
Speaker C:To.
Speaker C:A lot of this was kind of issues of 2ness.
Speaker C:Let's talk a little.
Speaker C:Let's go positive, Lindsay.
Speaker C:Let's reframe some of these things and talk about the things that we love about twos, things that we've been surprised about them with.
Speaker C:I'll say so.
Speaker C:I have lots of twos in my life, and the anticipating needs is really awesome when it's done well, if you feel really seen and you feel that you matter, and I think that is something that is really beautiful and that all my softness is welcomed.
Speaker C:There's.
Speaker C:It just feels like a.
Speaker C:I'm just sitting in a.
Speaker C:Sitting in a big pillow oftentimes when I'm interacting with twos, and.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker C:And I.
Speaker C:I've also, over time, learned to appreciate the.
Speaker C:The intensity.
Speaker C:Obviously, it can go awry, but the intensity of twos, they can.
Speaker C:They can be very aggressive and assertive, and they're like, you know, mama bears kind of thing.
Speaker C:You know, you will be taken care of in a very intense way.
Speaker C:And I think in certain moments, that's just really.
Speaker C:Oh, like, you can just.
Speaker C:Just sit down and you don't have to worry about anything because it's all taken care of.
Speaker C:So I.
Speaker C:I mean, I appreciate that because you feel.
Speaker C:You always feel at home.
Speaker C:You always feel welcomed.
Speaker C:When I'm in a house that is.
Speaker C:That has a two, you know, it's like they make sure to communicate.
Speaker C:Hey, feel free.
Speaker C:Anything in the fridge.
Speaker C:Let me know if you need anything.
Speaker C:Happy to pick you up.
Speaker C:Happy to take you.
Speaker C:It's just like, oh, that's just so helpful.
Speaker C:Like, when I'm Traveling and I don't have to think through all the details.
Speaker C:There's someone that has my back and enjoys having my back and helping take care of things that I need help with.
Speaker C:That's just.
Speaker C:Yeah, very valuable to me.
Speaker B:So if you're a two, you can email us your address.
Speaker B:Creek would like to come and stay with you.
Speaker C:Well, I mean, speaking of which, I am.
Speaker C:I am going to England, and I saw.
Speaker C:We have some listeners in Bristol, England, and I'll be in your neck of the woods.
Speaker C:Let me know.
Speaker C:Hit me up.
Speaker A:Yeah, I will say something that's.
Speaker A:I know it's not unique to me.
Speaker A:I know it's.
Speaker A:Everyone has their own version of this.
Speaker A:Probably if there's a number in which you.
Speaker A:That more so rubs you wrong, it's less about the number, and it's more about probably a past experience in which that number wasn't carried or handled or held well.
Speaker A:And sometimes Tunis can be difficult for me because of wounding experiences when Tunis wasn't held well and it was intrusive.
Speaker A:But that doesn't make it true of Tunis.
Speaker A:You know, it's.
Speaker A:It's.
Speaker A:And so it's difficult sometimes to not project that onto people.
Speaker A:People.
Speaker A:Similarly to Creek, I would say that I.
Speaker A:I think there is a quality about people in my life that do, too, where you.
Speaker A:They're very forgiving.
Speaker A:They're full of.
Speaker A:Of grace.
Speaker A:They're full of showing up for you.
Speaker A:And it doesn't.
Speaker A:It rarely feels like a burden, and they're always willing.
Speaker A:There is.
Speaker A:There are so many qualities of just selflessness and that, like you said, this person sees me and.
Speaker A:Yeah, it's just.
Speaker A:There's a.
Speaker A:There's a sense of this person is attuned to me, and they want to help me feel cared for.
Speaker A:And I just think that's.
Speaker A:Everybody needs this experience in their life, you know, so we're all familiar with Nan Henson, and I think y'all would agree that she has this depth to her and how she holds her Tunis in that.
Speaker A:In her giving.
Speaker A:She's giving from a place of holding onto herself first.
Speaker A:And so it's more.
Speaker A:I always.
Speaker A:I've always felt like it's a request.
Speaker A:Would you like my help?
Speaker A:When she's offering it, it's less.
Speaker A:Here is my help.
Speaker A:It seems to be an invitation, but it always feels so welcoming, like, which is why I would like to.
Speaker A:Yes, here I would like to receive your help.
Speaker A:You know, it feels like she feels like such a warm invitation to knowing.
Speaker A:To finding out I'm okay.
Speaker A:And I'M loved.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:I remember recently, I was with Nan in a spiritual direction session, and we were talking about some pretty tender things, and I experienced this.
Speaker B:I think it's just kind of like Michael Naylor was saying, it's not a wimpy kind of love.
Speaker B:And you were saying, creek.
Speaker B:It's this.
Speaker B:It can feel aggressive, but it's aggressive on your behalf against the things that are against you.
Speaker B:And it is so awakening, I think, to the parts of yourself that you've undervalued and not had enough respect for yourself.
Speaker B:And it's.
Speaker B:It's very awake.
Speaker B:It was awakening.
Speaker B:I've had several very awakening moments with.
Speaker B:With her in spiritual direction, where it was like, you are valuing this part of me so much that I think I can borrow that while I learn how to value it, too, you know?
Speaker B:And I remember she.
Speaker B:I was sharing something very difficult, and she just looked me right in the eye, and with this warm.
Speaker B:It was a warm directness.
Speaker B:Said the thing I was most afraid to say out loud.
Speaker B:And the power of that combination of her warmth and depth of love and also the willingness to just say the damn thing.
Speaker B:It's so powerful and profound.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker C:I've had similar experiences where, like, able to give the brutal truth and then immediately follow it up with a sucker like a lollipop.
Speaker C:You know, it's just like, she's always been, like, hesitant.
Speaker C:She's like, I don't want to say this, but here we go.
Speaker C:And so she gives it to him, and it's just like a slap across the face and an immediate hug, you know?
Speaker C:And neither one feel intrusive.
Speaker C:Both feel like the exact right thing.
Speaker B:Well, and she.
Speaker B:I think to use her as an example for twos, it's like there's a tremendous amount of consent that she practices momently.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:And you feel like she is holding herself back, and she's gonna make sure that she has permission to go there with you.
Speaker B:And that is another way that it feels so safe, because she's aware enough to say, I need to make sure you're okay with this.
Speaker C:So we mentioned a few mistypings, but let's just kind of rattle off a few other ones just for those that are kind of trying to figure out what their type is or learning how to type.
Speaker C:So we did mention sevens.
Speaker C:We mentioned nines.
Speaker C:I've seen.
Speaker C:I've seen fours.
Speaker C:I've seen sixes.
Speaker C:Not for very long, but.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker C:Anything else?
Speaker A:Twos and eights.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker B:Really?
Speaker A:Oh, yeah.
Speaker C:The intensity thing, that's not something I've seen.
Speaker B:Can you say more?
Speaker C:I think it depends on the subtype that's gonna tamper some things.
Speaker C:Again, mama bear thing.
Speaker C:Again, what you're experiencing from someone in a particular context, you know, all the different factors laid in there.
Speaker C:I.
Speaker C:I've seen 2 and 8 be.
Speaker B:Confused more in females.
Speaker C:I've seen it both ways.
Speaker C:I've seen eights who.
Speaker C:Eight men who think.
Speaker C:Who are twos.
Speaker C:Sorry, eight.
Speaker A:No, men that think they're eight.
Speaker A:Men that think they're eights.
Speaker C:Yes, there we go.
Speaker A:Because to.
Speaker A:Because of the.
Speaker A:Maybe the cultural expectations of manliness, I don't see two ness in me.
Speaker A:I can only see the connections that.
Speaker A:In which I express eightness sometimes.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker A:And that's all of my two ness or whatever.
Speaker B:That's why I bring the gender thing up is I wonder if more men who are twos think they're eights and more women who are eights think they're twos.
Speaker C:It's possible.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker C:And so, yeah, the nine, there's that.
Speaker C:That sort of some level of difficulty with boundaries.
Speaker C:I think the two and the four.
Speaker C:Obviously there's a line there, but I think the emotionality and the needing.
Speaker C:Needing someone else to affirm who they are.
Speaker C:So there's some similarities there.
Speaker C:So, yeah, some things to think about.
Speaker C:Let's do the quote.
Speaker C:Abram, what do you got for the quote for the two?
Speaker A:This is from Gabor Mate, who said that when people don't feel wanted, they make themselves feel needed.
Speaker C:Whenever you give these quotes, I'm not entirely sure what to say.
Speaker C:It's just like, yeah, that's good.
Speaker C:But yeah, good quote.
Speaker A:I think the temptation is to believe.
Speaker A:I mean, who was talking about this?
Speaker A:Either the narrative or.
Speaker A:Or the institute, but the temptation is to believe that your worth is indispensable from how others, you know, feel seen by you or not.
Speaker A:It's contingent on other people.
Speaker A:Like I.
Speaker A:You're.
Speaker A:You did it.
Speaker A:You.
Speaker A:You helped me.
Speaker A:And I feel.
Speaker A:I feel really seen.
Speaker A:Oh, well, now I know I'm worthy.
Speaker A:You know, the temptation is to completely base your worthiness in making someone else feel seen and taken care of and loved.
Speaker C:I think that's a nine and a two thing.
Speaker C:There's some self deprecation and like, oh, it's not me.
Speaker C:It's not me leaning sometimes.
Speaker C:All right, folks.
Speaker C:Tooz, thanks for sticking.
Speaker C:Sticking through all the.
Speaker C:All this stuff.
Speaker C:Thanks for sticking with us and taking care of us.
Speaker C:We really appreciate you.
Speaker B:Thanks, Tooz.
Speaker B:We love you.
Speaker C:We love you.
Speaker C:And.
Speaker C:And yeah, until next time.
Speaker C:Thanks for listening to Fathoms in Anagram podcast.
Speaker C:If this episode affected you in some way, we'd love it if you would share it with a friend or family member.
Speaker C:Don't forget to check out the show notes for ways to connect with us and continue your serious work as an unserious human.
Speaker A:Welcome back to Fat, Fat Fat.
Speaker B:You almost got to snort out of me.
Speaker B:Almost so close.
