Type 3: The Pursuit of Success, Identity, and Value

Creek: 00:00:03

Welcome to another episode of Fathoms and Enneagram podcast. Welcome to Type 3. We are really excited for this one.

And I'll just tell you all now you're going to want to wait till the end because we have a special guest.

Lindsey: 00:00:17

We do.

Creek: 00:00:18

So that's exciting.

Abram: 00:00:20

Or you could skip to. Skip to the end. Do you know that song?

Creek: 00:00:25

No, I don't.

Lindsey: 00:00:26

Oh wait, sing it again. It's so close.

Creek: 00:00:28

There's so much singing.

Lindsey: 00:00:32

We are all singers. Did you forget that? Do you need to do a show?

Abram: 00:00:36

Reminds me I'm still compartmentalizes his life.

Creek: 00:00:39

I do.

Abram: 00:00:39

Singing is every year.

Creek: 00:00:41

I really do.

Lindsey: 00:00:41

Okay, Skip to the end. Skip to the end. It's a song from my childhood.

Abram: 00:00:46

It's an old song. It was like a not well known CCM band that I am blanking on right now.

Lindsey: 00:00:52

Yes, it was the girl singing. No, no, no, no, no.

Abram: 00:00:56

My twin brother, remember?

Creek: 00:00:59

So I know we haven't done the silliness in a while, but what is something you feel like you are exceptional.

Lindsey: 00:01:06

Or outstanding at in general or right now?

Creek: 00:01:12

Just, I don't know, first time comes to your mind, what do you feel like? I'm pretty good at this.

Lindsey: 00:01:19

Making my kids laugh. I'm really good at that.

Creek: 00:01:23

I'm pretty good at making a lot of people laugh.

Lindsey: 00:01:25

I think that's maybe like a good general generalization.

Creek: 00:01:30

I'd say mine is probably making people cry. Abram.

Abram: 00:01:41

What do you think?

Creek: 00:01:42

That's true.

Abram: 00:01:45

The funny thing is, I think you're kidding, but you're actually. No, you're not. I actually know you're not kidding. I think you're serious.

Creek: 00:01:50

It is halfway kidding for sure.

Abram: 00:01:54

Is that what you're going with?

Lindsey: 00:01:55

Do you have. Do you have a serious answer?

Creek: 00:02:01

I'm going with that one.

Vanessa: 00:02:02

That's just.

Abram: 00:02:03

It's halfway serious, you know, I would say. I mean, it's what I did for money for 20 years, singing.

Gayle: 00:02:12

Yeah.

Abram: 00:02:13

I got a voice.

Lindsey: 00:02:14

You do. You do. And you're exceptionally good at runs. Oh, I've noticed that about you.

Abram: 00:02:23

And for the people who are not singers, what does that mean?

Lindsey: 00:02:27

Like multiple notes in succession sung rapidly. Can you give us a run? I am not exceptional at runs. I aspire to be. I shall be one day.

Creek: 00:02:47

All right, so like in every episode we are going to read some definitions. We're going to define our terms. This is really important.

If you have not heard these, we really suggest you stick around and kind of wrestle with these. Perhaps I will start.

So type a category of people or things having Common characteristics or a person or thing symbolizing or exemplifying the ideal or defining characteristic of something.

Lindsey: 00:03:14

Strategy, a plan of action or policy designed to achieve a major or overall aim.

Abram: 00:03:20

I just woke up from a nap. So, pattern, regular and intelligible form or sequence discerning in certain actions or situations.

Creek: 00:03:33

And finally, model a simplified and provisional description of a system or process to assist calculations and predictions. And because we are talking about the three today, here are some of the words you may hear.

Abram: 00:03:47

Achieve successfully, bring about or reach a desired objective level or result by effort, skill or courage.

Lindsey: 00:03:54

Perform to carry out, accomplish or fulfill an action, task or function, or to present to an audience a form of entertainment.

Creek: 00:04:07

That'S helpful, outstanding, prominent, conspicuous, striking or marked by superiority or distinction.

Lindsey: 00:04:16

Excellent, distinguished, efficient, acting or producing effectively with a minimum of waste, expense or unnecessary effort. Acting directly to produce an effect.

Creek: 00:04:29

Nice. All right. And so again, some things to keep in mind as you are listening today.

And I've just been seeing this, how important this first one is over and over and over, especially for certain types is subtype.

We're not talking about the subtype, the relationship between the instinct and sexual bias and the type or the strategy and how much variation there is between those.

So our episodes may even be biased towards a particular subtype because of the people we're talking about, what our relationship to the instincts and all that other stuff. So please keep that in mind. That is really, really, really important.

So other thing for beginners, there's going to be some language thrown around that you may not understand or know. Feel free to check the show notes. Reach out to us. We should have some good places for you to learn more.

And then finally, keep that Curiosity dialed to 11. Don't necessarily try to nail that person. You know, it's so and so is a three. So and so is this blah, blah, blah. Just kind of listen.

How does that relate to your own personal experience? And just kind of stay open, stay curious. So without further ado, here we go. The teachers.

Abram: 00:05:52

The narrative enneagram.

Terry: 00:05:56

So moving on to type three, the performer. So the Threes live in the worldview that says you are what you do. You get value for what you accomplish.

You get value for kind of the image that you create to be successful. And in this culture in the United States where performance and I think we kind of live in a three culture, it's not for a three.

Yes, it's about doing tasks and goals, but it's also a sense of thinking. The image for Threes, I think it's about Tasks and goals. And often when we teach, everybody can relate to wanting to do tasks and goals.

But one of the real differentiators for threes is a sense of being, because they're heart types, the capacity to be able to read the response and shift to meet the response. So there's a chameleon like quality that can change.

And threes can shift depending on who their audience is to get that recognition for what they're doing. And I think we sometimes just see that it's about tasks and goals.

They do focus on tasks and goals, but it's also about maintaining this image in order to be successful and gain recognition in the eyes of others. So there's many strengths here. There's a sense of getting things done. Excitement, efficient, hardworking, competent, capable.

And again, our strengths can be our weaknesses and they can be overworking and not stopping and competitive and not being able to actually know what's going on inside of them.

And again, as Christopher mentioned, the motivation, it's about getting recognition through the image and the success and focusing on tasks and goals in order to do that. I often get asked the question, how can threes be a heart type?

Because there's all this focus on doing and achieving, but it's the heart that is reading the situation and is helping the three respond to get to that place of recognition so that I know I have value. There's a hit here. I'm good.

And when the three starts being aware and waking up, they realize that they're tired, that they've overdone, that they burn out. In my early days of teaching, I had threes and eights, the least represented to a person.

The threes that would come to my trainings had some sort of crisis that forced them to stop.

And I would ask the same threes over and over because they were waking up to the fact that they had overdone it and had lost touch with their own feelings. We talk about threes avoiding failure, but in this avoiding, they lost touch with their own authentic heart.

So as we talk about a movement towards growth of authenticity, what's happening in my own heart? Can I slow down enough to feel my own feelings so that they will lead me to the actions and the tasks that I want to do?

But they'll be coming from an authentic place inside, not to get this outside recognition. I can hear David Daniel saying to threes, what's your heart's desire? So it's the movement from this.

They'll never lose the doing, they'll never lose the forward energy in getting things done. But the difference will be it will become from a place of authenticity in their own hearts.

Creek: 00:09:51

And just to say, as we're saying this, the word that came to me, as I'm hearing you, Terri, is a word that I've used before, which is a kind of hustling. There's this hustling and I think actually Susan Zurcher called the heart types the doing triad, which I find so interesting. Right.

Because there is this kind of. There's this hustling to get something from the outside to have a sense of value. And I hear you naming that.

Vanessa: 00:10:16

And we hear it in the two.

Creek: 00:10:17

And the four as well.

Maria Jose: 00:10:22

So for type three threes, we describe them as striving to feel outstanding. And I have to say that threes are the ones, some of the types that are more negatively portrayed in the enneagram.

And it is tough to see how sometimes they are shown in a way that it's unfair or it's incomplete or it's biased, but anyway. So we see them as striving to feel outstanding. And what they're. They're very goal oriented and they want to exceed the standards.

They want to be better than themselves before. They want to produce results and they want to be successful in whatever they undertake.

And in order to be successful to know that I'm succeeding and to know that I'm producing results, they need to have a clear goal for it. So threes are really, really good at doing that, are at setting goals for themselves and other people and going after it under stress.

Sometimes they might value their image or how they're being perceived as successful than the substance that's underneath what they're doing, working and doing things to bring attention to their accomplishments.

So what you will see is people 3 sometimes highlighting what they have done, the positive things that they do too much, and that's when they're more under stress. They value efficiency, they want to go as quickly as possible, kind of speed. It's very valuable to them. But they have.

And I don't want to sound defensive here, but I'm trying to be fair and address some ideas that threes kind of cut corners or don't have values or are deceitful. We don't see them that way. We see them as people whose preferred strategy just striving to feel outstanding.

And they do it in adaptive or maladaptive ways, but they're as good people as anybody else. The neglected strategy is trying to feel secure at point six.

And what we usually do is distort what it means to feel in the strategy that it's the neglected strategy. So secure means kind of average. If I'm striving to feel secure, then that means that I will not be outstanding. So I want to avoid it.

So I neglect that. And that can take. Can look different ways. And one of them is I try to hide the anxiety that I have.

I try to hide those signals that show up when I'm trying to do something well or when I don't know if I'm going to succeed. All of those things. I try to look like I have it all I have put together and I'm not anxious or anything like that, or work more lonely.

I want to do it myself so that I do it faster and get there sooner instead of feeling more secure and doing more kind of teamwork or things like that, as sixes tend to do. On the other direction, the support strategy is trying to feel peaceful.

And threes, in order to feel more outstanding, tend to avoid certain conflicts. They tend to withdraw and hold back so that they don't draw attention when they're not going to succeed or do a good job.

So it's a way in which threes feel even more outstanding. It doesn't mean that they become a nine. It means that it reinforces. It supports their desire to feel outstanding through feeling peaceful.

Vanessa: 00:14:51

Enneagram Institute.

Gayle: 00:14:55

Something interesting about the twos and threes and fours, all the types in the Heart center is that they are very dependent on the kind of communication loop between them and other people, their audience or the people that they're with.

And twos in particular really need to feel that their love is being received and appreciated and honored by other people, and that they're receiving back a kind of validation for being the loving, giving, kind, generous people that they take themselves to be. When that dries up, like for the two, it's like, I don't know who I am. And that's true for the twos, threes and fours.

For the threes, it's a little bit different. The threes are. We call them the achiever. And so they're putting out what they do into the world.

And they believe that that's what's important and that's what is going to give them value and that's what is going to give them life.

But it's very important that other, that the people for whom they're doing this, people in the world, their audience, whoever sees it and appreciates it, acknowledges it, and is in favor of and admires what it is that they do, what they're doing because again, it's not something that they want to do in a vacuum. It very much depends on getting the appreciation and applause and buy in of other people.

So the type in the center of the heart space is the type 3 personality, which we call the achiever. And this is the success oriented, efficient type.

We say that threes are very adaptable and excelling and in general in the average levels, they're quite driven and can also become very image conscious.

We also call threes the role model because very often even from a young age, like from their school years, they take it upon themselves to become someone, to become someone of value, to become someone who is admired, someone who is considered worthwhile and valuable. So they might rise to the top early in life.

In school they become the captain of the football team, or the cheers squad, or the debate team, or the president of the student body, things like that. You generally see threes out and about and sort of achieving very often early in life and then this just continues.

The essential quality of the three is value or glory. And it's that sense of wanting to be, you know, valuable in the eyes of the divine and to be a, an aspect of the glory of God in a way.

So the fear that the three has, the basic fear is of being worthless, of being deficient, of being without any inherent value. The F word for the threes we say is failure. Like there's nothing worse that a 3 can feel than that they're a failure.

They tend to be very hard workers, very focused, very efficient with their time management. They go after what it is they want.

They tend to be very goal oriented and they can sort of harness their energy, their time, their ambition, their aims, their goals. Again, as I said, often from a very early age and go for what they want.

And if they have a special talent that comes out at an early age, they will pursue this and go deeply into it. You see a lot of famous top tier athletes, for instance, who are threes.

In fact, I always joke about how if you want to see threes on parade, just watch the Olympics. Because in my opinion about 90% of them are threes. Because threes have what it takes to get to that level of achievement.

They have the work ethic, they will put the time in, they value it. Their priority is to become the best, best, hopefully at what they do.

So if it's a sport, you know, if it's a physical activity, they're going to put the extra hours in, they're going to go beyond what anyone else will of Another type generally will even do to achieve that goal. So they very often end up at the top of their field, whatever that is, you know, whatever that is in business or the arts.

A lot of our most famous singers at this time are, you know, are threes. And threes tend to create a brand around themselves. Like they see themselves as the business that they're in, and they tend to create their own.

Their own brand around themselves. And that's often how you can spot a three. So the desire is to feel valuable, to be admirable, to be worthwhile.

And as I was saying about the two, this requires a certain give and take loop. Like I put out there what it is that I do.

And it's very important to me that you, whoever, you know, the audience or just the people or the people that work with me, whatever, see and appreciate and notice and approve of what I do and think that, you know, it's great because I need that feedback. The people in the heart triads, the two threes and fours, we need that feedback from other people that tells us that what we're doing is.

And so, you know, they make wonderful mentors and coaches, and they're all about helping other people to be the best that they can be and meet their potential.

Lindsey: 00:20:59

Well, we are so delighted to be with our good friend Vanessa Fernandez today. How are you?

Vanessa: 00:21:04

I am good.

Lindsey: 00:21:06

What have you been up to since last time we hung out?

Vanessa: 00:21:09

Oh, gosh. Well, we just finished going through a little hurricane down here in south Florida and a little bit, you know, got through that, but just work.

Nothing too crazy.

Lindsey: 00:21:21

Well, we're excited to talk to you about three ness today, but before we get started, we just have some rapid fire questions. So are you ready?

Creek: 00:21:30

Yeah.

Lindsey: 00:21:31

Okay. If they were making a movie about your life, who would you choose to star as you and who would you choose to star as your opposite?

Vanessa: 00:21:42

Oh, God. I don't really know too many celebrities. And this is gonna sound like a strange pick, but I would pick Cher to be me. Yes. Girl. Yes.

I just feel like she has this, like, elegance and, I don't know, fabulous. She's a little extra. I don't know, Just like her vibe. Yeah. Who would play opposite?

I don't know if we're going, like, back in that era, maybe like Sylvester Stallone or something like that.

Speaker H: 00:22:18

Wow.

Abram: 00:22:19

Okay.

Lindsey: 00:22:20

Fireworks. That would be a good one. That'd be a good one.

Abram: 00:22:23

All right, next question. Could you, for us, if you had the most ideal time frame, paint a picture of your go to morning routine?

Vanessa: 00:22:37

Oh, yeah. For Sure. I always wake up early. I wake up at like 4:30. And I would keep that. I wouldn't change it.

I would just maybe give myself a little more time to ease into going to the gym. I always drink this like, electrolyte drink in the morning, and it just kind of wakes me up.

But then once I get back from the gym, I want to go straight to the beach, sit on the beach and meditate for a little bit, and then come home and just stuff my face with like a nice big egg and bacon sandwich and then just cuddle with my kids. That's probably like my ideal morning routine if I had my way.

Abram: 00:23:17

Sounds amazing.

Creek: 00:23:19

So you're, you're into, you're into fitness. What's, what's your biggest pet peeve that people do at the gym?

Vanessa: 00:23:26

Oh, I mean, probably using equipment incorrectly, but like, really incorrectly. Like in a way that makes me. Only because it gives me anxiety that they're gonna injure themselves.

Like, I, like, I'm like internally cringing and I can't lock in and focus on my own list because I'm like, oh, don't do that. Like, that's not gonna work. So that's probably my biggest pet peeve. But just because I'm.

Creek: 00:23:56

That's fair.

Vanessa: 00:23:57

Nervous, I don't want anxiety at the gym. I want to be, like, peaceful in my body.

Lindsey: 00:24:02

And so, yeah, this is exactly why I don't go to the gym, because I don't want to create anxiety for people like you.

Abram: 00:24:09

Well, I was just going to say when I'm at the gym, that's one of the things that I'm catching my, my thought life, being around the most is if somebody's thinking, what the hell is that guy doing? That's not how you use that.

Vanessa: 00:24:21

Okay, here's a little, like, possibly embarrassing insight into what it's like being a three, because I, I know. Well, I shouldn't say I know exactly how to do every workout, because I don't. But like, the ones that I do, I know how to do them properly.

At least I'm pretty sure I do. So in my mind I'm like, just watch me. Just watch me, like, do it. And if that's how you do it, wow. I know.

Creek: 00:24:50

That's great.

Abram: 00:24:52

That's amazing. I appreciate the invitation in there. That's good.

Vanessa: 00:24:57

Probably why my kids don't want to go to the gym with me because I'm like, just do it this way.

Creek: 00:25:01

Well, let's get into it. You already mentioned a little bit of how three shows up for you. But could you give us a little backstory of how you got into the Enneagram?

And maybe more importantly, what was that experience like when you first discovered the Type 3?

Vanessa: 00:25:19

Yeah. When I first read the description of the Type 3, my first book was the Sacred Enneagram by Chris Hewarts. It's the first book I ever read.

And I resonated with the core concepts of the type 3, the worthiness piece.

But a lot of the external manifestations, like the performer and always wants to win and, like, big and showy, I couldn't see that in myself, which is hilarious now, especially from the story I just told you about me at the gym. But at the time, I was very much in a culture that prioritized humility, that prioritized submission, that prioritized servanthood.

So the three idealization, like, this is what success looks like. I must be. That had me viewing myself in a way that was very. Not three. Like, I have to be submissive and soft and humble and all of these things.

And so it was hard for me to see myself as a three. And I had a lot of, like, no, no, that's not me. Maybe that's other threes. That doesn't fit.

So there was a whole sort of reckoning that I had to go through to even start seeing myself in truth. That deception, again, of three just kind of kept me from actually seeing myself in truth. So that. That was. You know, it wasn't.

It wasn't a crazy, difficult journey to land on my type, but there was definitely a lot of internal resistance as I sort of worked through that.

Creek: 00:26:54

And maybe you already said this, but did you consider other types of maybe a two?

Vanessa: 00:27:01

I thought. But I'm. I don't know. I. Actually, I'm. I would kind of despise some of the two qualities in myself because I also kind of thought, oh, that.

That's what makes me weak. I was very conflicted. Like, I wanted to be humble because that's what made me successful, but I didn't want to be weak.

So there's a lot of, like, a struggle there. I Definitely have a 4.4wing, but have much more of a bias to action. So I was pretty sure that wasn't where I landed.

And then for, like, a very brief moment, I thought maybe I was a type 8, but I was just in a very, like, angry stage of my life.

Creek: 00:27:41

Yeah.

Vanessa: 00:27:41

Real quick. I got out of that. I got out of that place. Yeah.

Creek: 00:27:45

Yeah.

Lindsey: 00:27:46

After you discovered or, you know, were kind of wrestling with this three ness Initially, what. What came next for you in your journey? Did you just start studying with a teacher right away? Did you take a certification course? Tell us how.

Who you studied with, what approaches you looked at, and where you kind of landed.

Vanessa: 00:28:04

Yeah, I started. I did a cohort, an Enneagram cohort with Suzanne Stabile. But I only completed one out of the four meetings because Covid happened.

That was, like, a false start, kind of.

But it really opened up a lot of deeper Enneagram work, because, as probably most threes do, I went into Enneagram work trying to be the best three that I could be. Like, oh, okay. Like, let me figure out how to do this the best way.

And I remember this moment of reckoning where I started to click that my journey as a three was to start letting go of or letting fall away, the need to be the best at everything. And that exceptionalism.

And it almost felt like, you know, the parable of the rich young ruler where he comes to Jesus and he's like, what must I do to be saved? And he's like, well, sell everything you have and follow me.

And it felt like, oh, if I'm gonna let go of being the best at everything, then that means I'm going to enter certain areas where I'm just mediocre. I'm just adequate. I'm just passable, nothing special. She gets the job done, but there's no gold stars. It's just okay.

And, like, my heart started to melt inside of me, and I was like, oh, I don't want to give that up. What do you mean? Like, who would I even be if I wasn't the one who worked the hardest in. Did the best, pushed, you know, the most?

And it was like I was standing between everything that I had built my life on and what must I do to be saved? And I was just caught between this, like, you know, tension of, your new life is going to cost you. You're old. And I just sat there for a while.

Like, I didn't try to push myself on, because even in that space, I kind of knew, well, the right answer is, give that up, Vanessa, and go and do what you must do to be saved. But there is this part inside of me that was like, I'm not ready. Like, I just saw it, and my body's a little slow, and she's not ready yet.

So I just kind of let myself sit in that tension for a while. But that was a pretty pivotal point of my sort of, like, little growth arc, where it just hit me, like, what it actually means to.

To start working with my type. It's like, oh, honey, this is going to fall away. Are you okay with that? Are you prepared for that? And I was like, no, not yet. But I. I will be.

I just wasn't at the time.

Abram: 00:30:42

Yeah, I have. I have a lot of questions that I want to ask you around that. But I want to get into a question that we.

We've been asking each one of the humans, like yourself, is that if you could you give us maybe five words that you would use five adjectives, adjectives that you would use to best describe yourself.

Vanessa: 00:31:05

I thought you were going to say type threes, and then you said yourself, and I was like, damn it, that's a harder. That's a harder one.

Creek: 00:31:13

Yeah, exactly.

Vanessa: 00:31:16

Yeah.

Gayle: 00:31:17

One.

Vanessa: 00:31:18

Especially for a three, because it's. That's the work, right? Who am I? I know what you want me to be. Who am I actually loving? I am fierce. I am deep. I am powerful, and I am soft.

Lindsey: 00:31:42

Well, I want to cry now. I love those.

Vanessa: 00:31:46

That's a good question.

Creek: 00:31:49

It seems like a lot of those words people would often equate to, like, an 8 or something like that, and not so much of a three. Can you talk a little bit about that? What is powerful and fierce, those two things? What does that look like from your perspective?

Vanessa: 00:32:08

So there's this drive that threes have. I should maybe say I have. I don't want to talk about all three threes, but there's this drive, and when I didn't.

When I don't have it embodied in a sense of self and empowerment, that drive gets pushed out into doing a lot for others. How do I make them feel this way? How do I make them think this way? How do I craft this perception of me?

How do I manipulate the world to get what I want? Want?

But once I know I'm enough and it, like, lands in my body and I have boundaries and limits and, like, a sense of self worth, that drive is no longer, like, pouring out for everyone else and feeling like I'm at the mercy of what everyone else wants. And it's. It's harnessed after my purpose, which whatever I decide that to be, and that creates for me at least this.

This experience of power and the fierceness. I don't know if how much of this is tied to three or how much of it is just me. I. I'm like, I'm hungry. Like, I'm hungry for life.

I'm hungry to live and to do things and to experience things. So this Fierceness is like, give it to me.

Like, I just want to sink my teeth into life because it's, like, housed deep in my belly rather than all this energy being like. Like, portioned out to every. Almost like a dealer dealing cards. Like, here you go. You get this part of me, and you get this part of me.

It's like, no, no, I get all the parts of me. And when I harness that, the power is here. So that's how I. That's how I experience it. There's, like, a thickness to it when it's housed here.

And then, of course, there's many times where I'm just hoping that someone validates me, and that is not how I experience myself. I'm just like, please, you know, affirm me. And then it's thin because I've given it all away. So that's the difference how I feel.

Creek: 00:34:21

Have you always felt that about yourself? Like, the powerful and fierce?

Vanessa: 00:34:26

What's.

Creek: 00:34:26

What's that journey been like for you?

Vanessa: 00:34:28

So, no, I have not always felt that way about myself. Most of my life, I felt like I could tell it was there, but terrified of what it would mean to embody it again.

A lot of my upbringing is around these concepts of quiet and gentle spirit, submissive, you know, humble, all these things. So to.

To show up in that environment, especially as a young woman, with shoulders back, head high, and be like, I'm fierce and I'm powerful is like, nah, that's not allowed here. And again, that idealization of my threeness, like, really suppressed a lot of that experiencing myself as powerful.

Of course, I think it was always there, but the journey to realizing it has been. I read this book by Martha Beck called the Way of Integrity. I believe is the name.

Abram: 00:35:28

Solid book. Yeah.

Vanessa: 00:35:29

I was so mad at it, though, because it was, again, one of those, like, reckoning moments where I was like, wait a minute. This means I have to release the need for everyone else to approve of me, like me and validate me so that I like me.

I have to release the need of everyone else, you know, connecting to me so that I can connect to me. And that whole idea of I abandoned myself so that I'm not abandoned by others, but it just never, never lands. And so, yeah, that.

That power, I pulled it in once I realized, wait a minute, how do I feel about myself and how do I want to live? How would I like to show up in the world? Like, all of these questions were like, oh, I want to be fierce sometimes I want to be powerful.

Sometimes I want to protect Myself sometimes. And sometimes I want to be so soft and just melt into everyone and just hold everyone. And then other times, I do this with my kids a lot, where I.

Or we're just, like, all in a cuddle puddle, and we're just all, you know, lovey together, and then all of a sudden, they'll tell when. When our mom is switched, and I'm like, excuse me too much. Go to your room or come over here or do this and that. Fierce and soft. I.

I like operating in that space a lot.

Lindsey: 00:36:56

I love cuddle puddles. I didn't know other people used that phrase, so I'm excited about that.

Vanessa: 00:37:01

It's the best.

Lindsey: 00:37:04

Vanessa, I'm so moved. And I think when I heard you say fierce, I was intrigued. And then when I heard you say soft, I just felt such a resonance with that as a woman.

And I think.

I love that you're using the word reckoning a lot in this conversation, because I think a lot of women are experiencing a reckoning with what it means to be fierce and soft, myself included.

And it's really painful and beautiful and exciting, the idea that you get to be both, because I think for a lot of us, nobody ever told us you get to be both. You are both, and you get to live that way.

And so I want to ask a really vulnerable question, and you can decline to answer, but I would love, if you feel comfortable, for you to say, is there anything that. That you've. What. What is something that you've lost?

What is something that you've lost in your journey toward realizing and awakening that you can be fierce and soft?

Vanessa: 00:38:16

I lost connections with people who did not have real room for my fullness. And I wish I could say, oh, but it wasn't a big deal, and everything's fine now, and it's all good. It's. It hurts.

And it's like the fairy tale bubble pops. And the. The part that I was playing, I stopped playing. And the people that I thought would love me for all that I am.

I'm not going to say they don't love me, but for whatever reason of their own, they couldn't feel comfortable being in close proximity with me because I was no longer willing to play the part that kept up the illusion. And that has been a huge loss. And I. I rage about it a lot, like, why. Why can't I have it all?

And actually, I think that's a big part of threes, or at least how it shows up in my life, is I genuinely feel like if I just Work hard enough, strategize enough, have enough time management systems, I can have it all.

I can have every single relationship I want and keep authenticity to myself and do all my self care and take care of my kids and be amazing as a worker and whatever, have a social life. And when I can't, it because it's not humanly possible, I just get so mad, like, there has to be another way. What if I only sleep three hours?

True story. I heard some sort of article on NPR where the sleep hacker figured out a way to survive on only three hours of sleep.

Like there was some method that he used. And I was so lit about it, I was like, this is it, this is my moment.

I'm going to figure out how to open three hours of sleep and I'll get it all to work. And then, and then, you know, I talked it through with my spiritual guide and she was like, and what if, just saying, just as another option.

And what if you didn't do that and you just found peace in being a human who has limitations?

What if you were okay with, not even okay with, but just accept the fact that there are some people who will no longer want to connect with you as you step into this fullness of yourself. And that is their choice. And you can't make people feel things they don't want to feel. You can't make people want things that, that they don't want.

And I was like, oh, I can if I just do what they think, you know, want me to. Like, yeah, of course I can. That manipulation of three, yeah, of course I can get anyone to feel a certain way about me.

I'll just become exactly what they, you know, like, and then they'll like me. But then it was like, oh, but I'm. I can't do that anymore. And so now I have to.

And I think that's one of the biggest, like reckonings, to use that word again or the biggest, you know, dynamics is everything comes at a cost. And the cost of maintaining some relationships was my authenticity, my power, my fullness, my humanity really.

And the cost of my humanity is some of those connections. And so it's like there's no. And I just want a perfect world where I can be fully myself and never lose any connections.

And the reckoning of the three is what if the world isn't yours to mold into exactly what you want, but what if the world is just what it is and you are what you are and there is nothing wrong with it, and that includes pain and that includes separation. Of some people. And that includes loss. What if it all belongs and that's the only place I found peace?

It still hurts, but there's like a piece in the middle of that hurt that I can hold the hurt. And then before I could hold the hurt, I couldn't bear to be my authentic self.

Abram: 00:43:04

Really beautiful answer. Just the sense I have right now of where your words have taken us is to a soft place.

And so it's just great that you've already described yourself that way. But I'm thinking back to the book that you were describing or you were talking about from Martha Beck, about integrity.

And a lot of people have with that word the connotation of the definition of doing the right thing when no one's looking, you know, that kind of integrity.

Whereas in that book she's talking about integritas, like wholeness, the amount of all of the different parts of us, too, so that we can be more authentically ourselves.

And I, you know, when I hear these words that you describe, there seems to be an intensity and not so much a lack of intensity, not a passiveness, but just different experience, different experiential versions of a person, like, to a drastic degree almost. And I. I just wonder. It's kind of an ambiguous question, but I wondered if you could describe what.

What it's like to hold the tension of those different paces for you. What's the. What's it like to hold the tension of being soft and fierce? And what is that? How does that show up for you?

Vanessa: 00:44:21

I love this question because I do this work a lot when I do my spiritual guide work with my teacher. And she'll say, what is true for you right now in your body? And always there's like, these dual experiences.

I'll feel this, like, hot fire in my belly, and then I'll feel this really, like, light and sort of playfulness in my head. Or I'll feel, you know, my back is really strong or my soft. My heart is really soft.

And I'm always, again, that 3 identification of, like, oh, but I want this, and this is the right way to feel, and this is the right experience that I want to have. And so always kind of. She can hear in my language that, like, I really would prefer this feeling, and I don't really like that one.

And she'll always prompt me, can you just be with both without having to change either one, without having to, you know, preference one or the other? Just see if you can be with both. And there's always this, like, internal, you know, Discomfort and conflict.

And I'm like, oh, but I'm feeling this, and I'm feeling that. And as soon as she says be with both, it's like peace. It's like, yes, I am both. I am fierce and I am strong.

I am in immense pain, and I am in total peace. I am like both. And the integration that is that integrity for me is to not have this. Like, I have to be this. I could never be that. I want to be this.

I don't want to be that. It's just like I am. I am all that I am.

Abram: 00:45:54

Yeah.

Vanessa: 00:45:54

And I hold all that I am. Yeah.

Abram: 00:45:57

And this is exactly why we wanted to. Why we're talking about these as human interviews rather than type interviews, because the human, as we like to say, contextualizes the type.

So when you talked about this in the very beginning to come full circle, success for you looks different than what success looks like for anybody else. Right. So we're getting to hear the human that holds more than just the misconceptions or the. Or the limited ideas of threeness.

So thank you for sharing that. Yeah.

Creek: 00:46:26

So always love talking to you. There's always so much, so many, so much juice to explore.

Lindsey: 00:46:37

So true.

Creek: 00:46:38

The only word that came to mind. I'm sorry. So last couple questions here.

What is a caution that you would give our listeners, and maybe particularly threes, that you've learned over the years that you're like, I did this for a really long time, and it didn't take me where I wanted to go. Be careful with this. What would that be?

Vanessa: 00:47:10

I mean, I'm still dealing with this a lot. Three is, we want to avoid the truth because the truth is very. Not shiny and pretty and perfect. I even have.

Have trouble saying what is true a lot of times, even just to myself, because what if what's true isn't what I want to be true? What if what's true means that what I want to be true is impossible?

Even just saying I'm tired because I never want to be tired, because I can't be tired because I have too many things to do. So I never, ever want to say I'm tired even if it's true. And so it's not really so much of a caution as it is this question of, but what is true?

It's a question I ask myself so many times, and I have to ask myself almost like three or four times before I'm actually honest again, even just with myself, not even talking about anyone else, if I care what they think of Me or not just being true to myself. What do you actually want, Vanessa? Oh, well, I want this because this person would feel better, and that person would be more happy, and. No, no.

What do you want? What is true? How do you feel? What is true? And what is true? What's the ugly true? Not the pretty true. What's the ugly true? And it's terrifying.

It was so terrifying. Again, when I read that Martha Beck book, I was, like, angry. I was like, what are you talking about? Don't you know what this is gonna cost me?

Don't you know what this is gonna. What I'm gonna lose?

And, like, I so appreciate your question, Lindsay, and it's such a hard question for me to ask, because, again, I don't want it to be true that choosing a path of integrity means there actually is pain and loss down the road. And maybe not for everyone, but it was for me. And I can't lie and say, oh, you know, I lost a few things, but it wasn't that bad.

Like, I lost probably some of the deepest, most profound relationships in my life, and I would do it all over again, and it was 100% worth it. But the ugly true is at least for me. Again, I don't know about anyone else. That is the ugly true. And I get mad at it.

You know, the truth will set you free, but first it'll piss you off. Like, that is 100%. But, man, for threes, I would just say just circle back to what is true, even if it scares you as many times as you need to. Wow.

Lindsey: 00:49:43

The ugly true. Can I use that? Yeah, I want to start using that. It's so good. Vanessa, what is.

What's an action or a habit that you've developed that has changed how you've approached your life?

Vanessa: 00:49:59

The habit of allowing for margin in my life is something that has really, really changed for me. And I mean that in everything. Like, I mean that when I schedule my meetings, not scheduling meetings back to back to back to back to back.

I used to schedule, like, 10 hours worth of meetings, literally with not even a break. I would. I would, like, ask someone, like, to pause for three minutes so I could run and pee, you know? Like, it was just so back to back to back.

And I felt so good about it, right?

Like, I was just like, oh, but now I've, like, schedule in margin and allow for margin, and I hate it because in the back of my mind, I'm like, oh, but I. Oh, but I could be doing more. Oh, but I could be fitting this In. Oh, but I could be, you know, really like pushing and I could.

And I know I could too. Like it's, that's the thing.

It's like I know I could, but when I schedule in margin and then taking that margin and just like exhaling into it, just being ah. There's nothing for me to do in these next 30 minutes, but literally just be and follow whatever my body wants.

And I, I took this silent retreat a couple years ago and it was, I was just by myself and I just did literally whatever I felt like doing in the next moment. I didn't have a watch, I didn't have a phone. I didn't know what time it was. I didn't know anything. When I felt hungry, I ate.

When I felt full, I stopped eating when I wanted. When I felt tired, I took a nap. I didn't know what time it was. It could have been 9 o' clock in the morning and I just woken up a few hours.

I had no concept of time. I just knew my body is tired. Like I felt like a toddler. You know, toddlers, like when they're hungry, they'll just ask you.

They don't know what time it is. When they're tired, they get cranky, they want to lay down, they don't know what time it is. They're literally just tuned in to their bodies.

When they see something interesting over there, they toddle over there. You know, they just. Oh, because I'm curious. Like I literally was wandering through the forest like, well, I don't know what to do with myself.

Well, Vanessa, what do you, what do you want to do? Oh, well, that looks interesting over there. And I just wandered.

Creek: 00:52:12

I love that.

Vanessa: 00:52:13

And it was so. So now when I have the margin, obviously 20 minutes and a lot of time, but I, I just sink into that.

I'm just like, well, what do I just what do I want to do in this moment that is not scripted or planned or constructed. It's just flow, go with what you want. Sometimes I take a nap. Sometimes I play with my kids toys. Like we do puzzles.

And so sometimes I go over and I like put things on their puzzles. So it's just without judgment, whatever I feel like I need in that moment.

Abram: 00:52:46

That's cool. I really like that.

Well, Vanessa, we are just really grateful for you and for your time and for you coming on and sharing yourself with us and telling the truth.

It's been really refreshing and meaningful and yeah, we're just grateful for your voice and the way that you show up with Threeness is awesome and we really are grateful. Grateful to share that with. With our listeners. So thank you for coming on. Where and how can people find you?

Vanessa: 00:53:15

Thank you. Also, I was looking forward to this, like, all week because I. I genuinely love. I miss our chats. I genuinely love chatting with you guys.

Always have the best questions.

Lindsey: 00:53:27

And.

Vanessa: 00:53:29

You can connect with me on Instagram at the Enneagram Workshop and then I'll also on my website, the enneagram workshop.com and I haven't been coaching for a while, but just recently had some time open up. That still allows for my margin, which is great.

So I've got a few spots open for coaching and then I decided to just send a newsletter twice a month out to my email list that is literally so unpolished. Stream of consciousness, random grab bag. It's like the least me, but the most me, if that makes sense. So it's absolutely.

I'm actually really excited about it. So that's what I've got going on right now.

Creek: 00:54:10

That's great.

Lindsey: 00:54:11

That's awesome.

Creek: 00:54:12

Awesome. Thanks, Vanessa.

Vanessa: 00:54:13

Thank you, guys.

Maria Jose: 00:54:19

Type talk movie.

Speaker H: 00:54:20

Talk about the type.

Abram: 00:54:23

There was that thing we just did that we keep on doing. That was. Yeah, we did it. So. All right, we're here now. What do you think, y' all?

Creek: 00:54:32

I don't know. Yeah. Yeah, that's. That was great. That was great. And as promised, we have a special guest on the line.

Lindsey: 00:54:38

Woo.

Creek: 00:54:40

Introduce yourself.

Speaker H: 00:54:43

So my name is Drew. First time caller, longtime podcast host.

Creek: 00:54:49

Yeah. It's so good to have your frequency in my ears.

Lindsey: 00:54:58

Aw, that's.

Speaker H: 00:55:00

That's nice. That's really nice. No one's ever said that those words about.

Creek: 00:55:07

Didn't you ever really? Yeah.

Speaker H: 00:55:09

No frequency in my ears. Yeah.

Creek: 00:55:13

Don't you ever, like, you come back to a podcast that you really love and it's just like, oh, oh, yeah. The voices that bring me comfort and dopamine.

Speaker H: 00:55:23

It does. There is a lot of nostalgia and comfort in seeing you 3. Your faces on the screen, hearing your voices.

Creek: 00:55:32

Yeah, all that. So real quick, if people haven't listened to the episode we did several months ago with Drew, please go back and listen to that. I think it's just.

It was a beautiful episode.

Abram: 00:55:45

But.

Creek: 00:55:45

But can you give us a quick update? Drew, where are you at? What are you doing with all your spare time?

Speaker H: 00:55:52

Yeah, I'm. I have no spare time. That's. I work and chase my kids around, so I live in Indiana still.

And yeah, for those of you who are new to the podcast, I actually used to be Involved with it a long time ago. Not that long ago.

Creek: 00:56:11

That's kind of your idea.

Abram: 00:56:13

Yeah. You were probably the reason it got started in the first place.

Speaker H: 00:56:16

You're probably right.

Creek: 00:56:18

The OG Daddy is in the house.

Lindsey: 00:56:20

The OG Daddy. Oh, yeah. Update, Drew.

Terry: 00:56:24

Update.

Lindsey: 00:56:25

Creek is the new daddy of the group.

Speaker H: 00:56:29

Well, it's quite the mantle you're taking on.

Creek: 00:56:34

I'm chasing these two kiddos around everywhere.

Lindsey: 00:56:38

That's it.

Speaker H: 00:56:38

It's your turn to hurt the cats. That is Fathoms. Yeah. Yeah. So dogs to goats. I was.

And that strikes me maybe as a stereotypical three thing to do is to get something started like this and then say peace.

Creek: 00:56:55

You guys got this. Shoo shoo.

Speaker H: 00:56:56

Yeah. I have enjoyed listening to this season. You guys are doing an amazing job. I had no doubt you would.

So, yeah, I miss you all, but have stayed very busy chasing my five kids around and all their activities and then trying to build a real estate business that pays the bills and that keeps me really busy, you know. So.

Creek: 00:57:23

Yeah, for sure.

Speaker H: 00:57:24

Life is good.

Lindsey: 00:57:25

That's outstanding.

Speaker H: 00:57:29

It's a good word. Yes. That's good.

Creek: 00:57:30

That's a great transition.

Speaker H: 00:57:32

I'm striving to be outstanding. That's for sure.

Creek: 00:57:36

Have you been able to stay with all the season five or where are you at in the season?

Speaker H: 00:57:44

I'd say I made it through half.

Creek: 00:57:48

Of the history episode and that's it.

Speaker H: 00:57:50

I made it through the history and I'm looking for my medal or certificate.

Creek: 00:57:57

That's fair.

Abram: 00:57:57

It's in the mail.

Speaker H: 00:58:01

I've earned it. No, that was great, by the way. And I told you all that via text.

I thought it was truly an important addition to the Enneagram community and conversation. So I. I'll admit I'm a few episodes behind, but I don't. I don't ever get too far behind. So.

Creek: 00:58:19

Yeah.

Speaker H: 00:58:20

Awesome. Yeah. So it's been fun to keep up with your all that way.

Creek: 00:58:25

Well, glad you're here. Let's go ahead and jump into what the people came for. Yeah. Anyone? Let's talk about schools. What were your observations?

Speaker H: 00:58:36

Yeah, So I think my observation is the type 3.

While there are distinctives between the school schools, there are some unifying threads that I think might make it easier on threes than some of the other types. Right. Maybe. Maybe that's just my own kind of navel gazing, if you will. Thinking it. It makes sense to me. So therefore it makes sense to others.

I don't know. But I think one of the.

I think one of the things that continues to resonate with me is the ATA approach to that, that striving to feel outstanding and maybe what's driving that. Right. So I think it's a little bit different trying to understand what it means to live out being outstanding versus maybe achievement. Right.

Achievement is. Which seems to characterize a lot of the other schools approach. It's more about, you know, the achiever. And, um, I think.

I think there are some maybe important distinctions that I don't know if I have good language for maybe.

But I think the activity of trying to be outstanding at everything you do does really kind of mark and characterize my life in some really profound ways, in some healthy and unhealthy ways, adaptive, maladaptive ways that leads to achievement. Right. I think achievements become kind of a result of that striving to feel outstanding. But that's not always the thing, which I'm.

Took me a while to realize, Right. That it's not always just about achieving the goal, making the Summit, hitting the finish line.

There is this element of was it done really well and maybe do other people notice? And, you know, it's just tough to admit. Right. Are other people watching?

Creek: 01:00:43

And I'm hearing a lot of preserving three or self preservation three, I guess, in other language.

Speaker H: 01:00:50

Yeah. Well, because I am one.

Creek: 01:00:52

Right.

Speaker H: 01:00:53

Yeah. Being a preserving three, I have a little different approach and somewhat of a complicated one, I think, to my three Ness. Right.

Creek: 01:01:02

Can you talk about that a little bit?

Speaker H: 01:01:04

Yeah. I think to some it's counterintuitive and to me it's just complicated. Right.

Like, what does it mean to strive to feel outstanding but also be really preserving? I think to me, the kind of bright lights, showmen, everyone looking at Me aspect of A3 is not as enticing, maybe as it is to some of the other types.

I mean, I'll take acclamation, you know, and praise and acclaim. I'll take it. All. Right. But it's not so much about that. It's more about, I think, the security and comfort that comes with the striving. Right.

And so I've noticed this a lot in, you know, my new career in real estate. Right. Like, I'm working really, really hard.

And while there are numbers associated with it, while there are milestones, all that it's really more about for me Anyway, as a preserving 3, the financial security. Right. Because that's all ramped up for me because I. There's no such thing as a consistent paycheck in real estate. Right. You're. You're just.

You're always working for the next deal, and you don't get paid unless you sell a house. That's how it works. So it's very different than a salaried role or, you know, some of those things I've had in the past. And so it's.

It has helped me kind of maybe turn the gem of my threeness a little bit in that way, because. And.

And also probably identify some ways in which, you know, I'm learning anew how to maladaptively be a three, preserving three, especially because it's really easy to tell myself, well, I should. I better do this, because I definitely have the drive.

I definitely have the energy to work that hard, and then I can reconcile it, say, hey, you know, I got a lot of people that depend on this paycheck. So I'll continue to strive to be an outstanding realtor in order to, you know, preserve what matters most to me. Right.

Lindsey: 01:03:09

Yeah, I think you just. It made a light bulb come on for me and helped me frame this up in a way I hadn't really seen it before.

But it's like, based on your subtype, based on your instinctual bias as a three, when you get a taste of that thing that your instinctual bias is craving, then you're like, boom, sprinting for it. Right.

Speaker H: 01:03:32

Or like, having trouble, I think.

Lindsey: 01:03:35

Yeah.

Speaker H: 01:03:35

Yeah.

Lindsey: 01:03:37

So that looks different for you to.

Speaker H: 01:03:38

Accelerate to the type, for sure. Which again, may seem a little counterintuitive for the idea of preserving. Preserving is an activity, but it's more of a kind of gathering. Right?

It's more of a. You think you. You infer more like hunkering down, gathering, holding onto. Whereas I think for a three, at least for me, it's more.

It is accelerant or fuel for my striving to be outstanding. Often it's just towards a particular set of ends. Right?

Lindsey: 01:04:11

Yeah.

Creek: 01:04:13

Something that I saw in the other schools that I guess I want to note quick. And along with Vanessa of like this, I think we have this stereotype of the outstanding achiever, performer, like these people that are out there.

I think there's a. There's a.

At least for me, I had an image of my head, of the person who is always in business, the person who is always, like, making moves, making money, like doing all the things. And. And to be fair, a lot of the threes in my life are doing something in that arena. But it's also. But at the core of it, and.

And again, why kind of we all enjoy the awareness to action a little bit more is because it feels like, it's the first order of outstanding instead of the second order of the result of being outstanding, where it's like, you can be outstanding in meditating. You know, you can be the most outstanding monk. It doesn't mean materialistic, shallow person, like outstanding can be in any area.

Speaker H: 01:05:22

Yeah, I think that's. That's a good point, Creek, because I.

I do think the stereotype is that of the, like, really successful business tycoon or entertainer or, you know, professional athlete. Right. Which was discussed. Which I. I don't disagree with that assumption that a lot of professional athletes are threes.

You know, I don't know if it's 90 or so, but I do think it makes sense that that sort of psychological makeup would lead to the drive and commitment to get to that level of something. Right. But I think the ways in which threes can be outstanding or focus their energies on striving to be outstanding are so vast and varied. Right.

Innumerable. And so I think that's exactly. Exactly right. And I can look back at my own life, and I've done a lot of different things with my life and.

Creek: 01:06:18

Yeah, yeah.

Speaker H: 01:06:18

And. And I can see that common thread. Right. In all of them. Yeah.

Abram: 01:06:24

I was going to shift this a little bit because we have a live three here. It was just. I don't think it was touched on in the. The human interview. But there is misconception about.

I was joking about this earlier before you came on, Drew. I don't even know if we're going to keep it or not. But threes are liars.

Speaker H: 01:06:43

How dare you.

Abram: 01:06:44

That there's a deceptive quality to them. You know, you can't really trust them. I just think that's a really bad stereotype for threes. And one of the ones that I think.

I forget if it was Maria Jose or Mario that named it. Yeah.

But I was just curious if you could kind of put to rest for our listeners that deception quality that is, that tends to be named but misunderstood with threeness.

Speaker H: 01:07:10

Yeah, I appreciate you bringing that up because I do think in many enneagram circles or resources, it gets typecast as we cut corners. Little lies to get ahead, to get the deal done, to get the result, whatever it might be.

But I do think Vanessa talked to this, maybe not directly, but certainly profoundly in the three's relationship with truth and their own understanding of truth. And I think the greatest deception. And this is probably true of all types. Right.

But the greatest deception that threes experience is the one inflicted upon itself. Right. Himself or herself or Themselves. And this notion that I deeply resonate with that has to talk about the. I can do it all, right? I can.

There has to be a way to optimize. There has to be a way to get everything done. Be the.

Be an outstanding dad, be an outstanding friend, be an outstanding citizen, be an outstanding, you know, on and on and on. And human limitations are the toughest thing, I think, for a three to really own up to and admit. Right.

And so I think if there's deceit to talk about with a 3, that's probably the most fertile ground for it is the deception of self that comes with a three. Trying to do it all and be outstanding in everything, all the time. Yeah.

Lindsey: 01:08:43

Yeah. One of the ways she said it was she used the phrase the ugly. True. I loved that. And she said, what if?

What's true means that what I want to be true isn't possible.

Speaker H: 01:08:57

Yeah, that's it right there. Because so often what I want to be true is that I can do it all. Right.

That there are enough hours in the day that there is enough bandwidth, and rarely is that ever the case. And so I think underneath the, like, the surface of a three is, you know, on the surface, like, oh, getting stuff done. Right.

Looking like they can handle it all. Underneath is this kind of anxiety and almost kind of frustration that's also adding fuel to the fire of a three.

Like, no, I can, and I need to prove myself right. That I can.

Creek: 01:09:43

I think that's so interesting. And often, like, I mean, there's the.

I always forget the names of these triads, but, like, the quote unquote, positive outlook triad, and that would be the two sevens and nines. But I'm like. But I. I think ata even said, you know, threes will highlight the positive and not.

Not in trying to hide the negative per se, but just, like, in some ways, like, look over here, because this is where the awesomeness is.

Speaker H: 01:10:10

Yeah.

Creek: 01:10:11

How would you.

Speaker H: 01:10:12

I think it's an attempt to say, no, we. I can prove everyone, including myself, wrong. Right. That the negative won't win the day, which, again, is not entirely bad. Right.

There's a lot of goodness. A lot of goodness can come out of that. A lot of productivity, but also a lot of burnout. A lot of.

And if left unchecked, really, you know, letting people down, you care about the most.

Abram: 01:10:38

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Vanessa, she talked about how her journey was to let go of the need to be the best at everything and be mediocre in certain areas.

Speaker H: 01:10:50

Yeah. You know, this.

Abram: 01:10:53

Go ahead.

Speaker H: 01:10:54

I was Going to say this.

When she said that, it reminded me of something I think really wise that my father said to me when I was young and saw all these kind of tendencies in me. Of course had no knowledge or language of the Enneagram, but told me, drew, just try to get the lowest A in the class.

Abram: 01:11:12

Hmm.

Speaker H: 01:11:14

That's all you need to do. And it. And it wasn't that he would have been upset if I got a B or C, but that was, you know, childhood preteen teen Drew. That wasn't an option.

I was going to get an A, so it was just a ma. But he could see all the effort and drive and energy that I was putting into everything I did. And it was just, I think, a good check on the system.

Like, hey, just try to get the lowest day in the class, you know? And I think that's been helpful to me in a lot of areas of life. Like, I don't. I don't have to go a hundred percent in all directions all the time.

Right.

Creek: 01:11:53

I want to say this about the entire season, especially in the type episodes of we have to be so careful not to pathologize the strategy or the type of. Like, just because Drew wants to be outstanding doesn't mean being outstanding is wrong. Right. And yet it's what Drew enjoys.

You know, I enjoy being unique. I enjoy curating moments and experiences. That doesn't mean that I can never. Like, it's choosing when to do that is the mature way of doing that.

When do I curate and make unique and really just infuse all this beauty into mundanity? And when it's like, I don't have time or I can't, or it's just not feasible right now, so can I be okay with that, too?

Same with excitement and simulation for Lindsay and peacefulness for Abram is like, we have to be careful that just because someone is doing that doesn't mean it is a wrong thing for them to be doing.

Abram: 01:12:51

Yeah, right. I think it's a good invitation, too, for. For the listener to. If.

If there's a tendency to maybe take a certain type 2 pathology quicker, what does that say about me in my perception of. Of whatever outstanding means? Because for me, I. I know I can have. We already talked about this. We were.

We were talking about my singing voice at the beginning of this episode, and we started talking about it quite a lot, and I'm like, wow, this feels like we're putting all the attention on me, and I don't really like being outstanding, so could we Move the subject. But it really, you know, my work is like, no, it's okay. We can keep doing that. It's not a bad thing. We can keep talking about how outstanding I am.

Actually, let's talk about a little bit more.

Speaker H: 01:13:33

You are outstanding, Abram. I missed that outstanding singing voice for sure.

Lindsey: 01:13:39

One of the things that MJ was saying with ata, that stood out to me, and this is not me necessarily disagreeing with this word, but I struggle with the word efficient for threes.

Speaker H: 01:13:54

Okay.

Lindsey: 01:13:55

And so maybe we could talk about that a little bit, because I do think that, you know, as she's talking about the neglected Strategy At.76, it's this, like, kind of like you were referencing. I don't really want to look at all the things that could go wrong that's going to just slow me down and hamper my progress.

But the refusal to look at what could go wrong or the refusal to be thorough is actually really inefficient.

And so my experience has been that especially when a 3 is in leadership of an organization or a group of people, that there ends up being a lot of things that you kind of have to get more communication about or we have to go back and fix because it wasn't really done properly the first time.

And this is where that idea of, like, cutting corners comes from is like, when the finish line is all that's in your site, then it can get really messy for the people that you're leading along the way. And that doesn't feel efficient.

Speaker H: 01:15:04

Yeah.

Lindsey: 01:15:05

Do you understand my wrestling there?

Speaker H: 01:15:06

No. Yeah, I get it. And with hindsight, it's not efficient. Right. But in the moment, to a three, it's just moving forward. Right.

Lindsey: 01:15:15

Yeah.

Speaker H: 01:15:16

We'll figure it out.

I do think there are capacities that threes often possess that when healthy, do does lead to a lot of, like, organizational skills, strategy, focus, clarity. Right. But in these maladaptive ways that you just described. Absolutely.

It can just be kind of a freight train towards a destination that you have to go back and kind of clean up the mess afterwards, which really is inefficient, for sure. And feels inefficient to a lot of other people. Right. Because I do think some unhealthy three leaders can just delegate decree. Right. And just to.

In their minds, it's off their plate. Right.

Lindsey: 01:16:08

And that feels efficient. Right.

Speaker H: 01:16:10

That feels efficient to me if I'm that leader. But maybe, maybe if Creek is the one who got the vague marching orders, that feels really inefficient. Right.

Creek: 01:16:20

Got the daddy orders that's right.

Speaker H: 01:16:23

Of course. You're the daddy now. I think. So maybe we should flip roles.

Creek: 01:16:29

Yeah. What I hear you saying, Linds, is efficiency doesn't equal. It's the maladaptive, skillful, unskillful, mature, immature kind of thing.

And that's just gonna be dependent on the situation and the person. Right.

One more thing I wanted to bring up for like the schools is again, the stereotype for the three is just kind of this hard charging, get out of my way person. But I think what we miss is the emotionality.

Sure, you talked about anxiousness and that sort of thing, but there's also like a deep sense of care for those around you and taking care of them and, and wanting the best for them and just trying to, you know, help other people be outstanding. You see the potential in others and you want to help grow that. And I think that's a really, really important point that we need to talk about for.

Speaker H: 01:17:21

I think there is, there's great capacity when the three is grounded and willing to come alongside others in that, you know, striving to be outstanding or allowing that striving to be outstanding, energy to be bigger than the self. Right. It's about an organization, a team, a common mission, those sorts of things. I think it can be really healthy and really powerful.

Sadly, we just have so many, you know, stories of leaders that, you know, are probably unhealthy threes, certainly not all of them. But we, we. It's easier to spot, I think the stereotypical unhealthy 3 liter maybe than it is sometimes the healthy one. Right.

Creek: 01:18:11

All right, so let's talk about some mistypings. I, I think for instance, a lot of again, in ATA language transmitters can get. Can get put in that category of three because we.

The stereotype of if you're successful, you are there for a free a 3 is.

Abram: 01:18:28

Is.

Creek: 01:18:29

Is there so get thrown in that category?

Speaker H: 01:18:33

Yeah. And I think maybe that flipping that as well. A lot of threes can probably get mistyped in terms of their instinctual biases as transmitters.

Creek: 01:18:42

Right, Right.

Speaker H: 01:18:43

Yeah.

Creek: 01:18:44

I have actually seen some four and three weirdly just from the like the, the individuation, exceptionalism of A4 and the outstandingness.

Vanessa: 01:18:57

Sure.

Creek: 01:18:58

But it's that it. It can look. Have some similar words and phrases around it, but it is definitely different.

Speaker H: 01:19:05

Yeah. Yeah. I think like people who study the Enneagram and like have at least memorized their school's version of type descriptions. Right.

Can see the three and four being worlds apart. But I think that's Correct. In reality, there are some commonalities that can lead to some initial confusion. For sure.

Lindsey: 01:19:28

I also feel like the. I resonated with some things with three as a seven. This high energy, wanting to fit a lot of things in, believing I can do all the things.

For me, it's all the things I want to do on my calendar with my friends, the things that excite me, moving on from things too quickly, sometimes lacking thoroughness, like we were talking about a moment ago. So I think that there's a similar energy there for threes and sevens.

Speaker H: 01:19:58

Yeah. And I would also group the eight in there and this is where we get into stances, which I know is controversial. Right.

But I do think that those three numbers do share those. Some of those characteristics at times. Right. And can be hard to distinguish why?

Like what's going on beneath the surface that's leading to that, or what I'm experiencing of you as a three, a seven or eight. Yeah, yeah.

Abram: 01:20:22

I. Yeah, No, I think threes and nines can be mistyped as well.

Might not be as often, but I have actually been confused for three, three every now and then. It's, you know, when you watch someone consistently over a long period of time, you see what, how they show up most often. Right.

But I think in certain situations of certain circles, nines can come off 3ish. Especially depending on the, you know, the subtype. So maybe the sexual nine or the transmitting nine. Right. Might come off more like a three.

Speaker H: 01:20:57

Yeah, yeah. And I think preserving threes could also be maybe mistaken as nines or when.

Abram: 01:21:01

I'm talking about how outstanding I am. Yeah, yeah.

Creek: 01:21:04

As I'm kind of thinking around the circle here, again, the stereotype of successful or even, you know, professional athlete, like, yeah, maybe there's more threes in the Olympics. I don't know how to even go about testing that.

But any person that has a form of success can be put in that three category, and that's just not helpful.

Speaker H: 01:21:32

Or any person that seems to have this, like, deep drive or motivation, you know.

Creek: 01:21:38

Oh, you like to do a lot of things, huh?

Speaker H: 01:21:40

Yeah. If you look at my life pretty.

Abram: 01:21:44

Simplistic on paper, it might look 3ish.

Creek: 01:21:47

Yeah, yeah, true.

Lindsey: 01:21:48

Type 1.

Speaker H: 01:21:49

Yeah, type 1.

Lindsey: 01:21:52

Do it my way, do it this way. This is the best way.

Speaker H: 01:21:55

Sure, sure, sure.

Creek: 01:21:57

All right, so before we get into the practical stuff, Abram, what's the quote we have for today?

Abram: 01:22:02

Yeah, this is from Carl Jung, who said that success is not about striving, but aligning. Living a life that reflects your truest values rather than the image you've constructed.

And if you want a different one, this is from Mother Teresa, who said, if you are humble, nothing will touch you. Neither praise nor disgrace, because you know who you are.

Creek: 01:22:22

Drew, what's some. A practical thing for threes, or just in the spirit of threes that we can all lean into an exercise or a practice that we can engage in?

Speaker H: 01:22:35

Yeah. I think I'm trying to think of what is helpful to me in this particular season because it is a season of striving. Right.

And it is a season of busyness and a lot of activity and a lot of productivity, and all of that's very good. But it's also. Does come at a cost. Right.

So I think it sounds trite, but finding ways to actively rest, but not just rest for the sake of yourself, but this for the sake of connection with others, I think without an agenda. Right.

I think is really important because it's really easy for threes to connect with other people when there's an agenda attached to it, Even if it's a really good connection. Even if it's. But if there's.

Doing so just for the sake of the relationship and the connection for threes in a busy season will feel really sacrificial, but it's actually really beneficial to a three. Yeah. So maybe go for a walk with a friend.

Creek: 01:23:38

Yeah, that's great.

Speaker H: 01:23:39

You know, that sort of thing. Yeah.

Creek: 01:23:41

Yeah. I guess. Only thing I'd add for that is, like, understand your values and goals. Like, sit down and do the work of clarifying those.

And don't just kind of haphazardly go through life.

Speaker H: 01:23:54

Yeah. Because otherwise, everything's a goal. Everything's a goal to strive for. Right. Yeah. It's good.

Creek: 01:24:03

Other two, you have any.

Abram: 01:24:04

Yeah. I would just say maybe pick an area in your life that you don't have to be outstanding in and give yourself the.

The grace to be mediocre in that space that helps you at least be efficient. You know, you can still meet the. The three in that. Their threeness.

Creek: 01:24:20

This is new to me. Versus I suck at this.

Speaker H: 01:24:24

Right, Right.

Creek: 01:24:25

Embrace that. All right, Drew, thanks so much. We know you gotta go. Really appreciate you showing up. Thanks for again, all the.

All that you've done for Fathoms and getting us. Getting us going and all the.

Speaker H: 01:24:37

You three are amazing. It's good to see your faces, hear your voices. Let's do something unofficial so I can practice what I preach and just catch up and connect.

Let's go for a walk.

Creek: 01:24:53

Thanks for listening. To Fathoms in Anagram podcast. If this episode affected you in some way, we'd love it if you would share it with a friend, friend or family member.

Don't forget to check out the show notes for ways to connect with us and continue your serious work as an unserious human.

Abram: 01:25:30

Wait, wait, wait.

Creek: 01:25:30

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Abram's supposed to do the something. Yeah.

Speaker H: 01:25:36

In his own time, I'm sure.

Creek: 01:25:38

Yes.

Abram: 01:25:40

So there was that thing we just did that we have keep on doing. That was. Yeah, we did it. So. All right, we're here now.

Lindsey: 01:25:54

I'm trying to remember lyrics. If I were a sal. Yeah, if I were a salad, I know I'd be splashing my dressing. That's such a great lyric. I'm getting ready to direct a musical.

Can you tell?

Creek: 01:26:12

Is that what that was? If any of our listeners were wondering about the tea of small town Michigan, there it is. I got you singing and everything.

Lindsey: 01:26:34

I don't even know if it was good. I haven't sang yet today. I haven't warmed up yet today. That's my disclaimer.

Creek: 01:26:40

Now you pull out all the prefaces and.

Lindsey: 01:26:44

Okay, take two.

Abram: 01:26:45

Let's go. That's like all the singer songwriters before they start their show. I have a cold today. Just wanted to let you know.