Type 1: The Pursuit of Goodness, Integrity, and Order

Lindsey: 00:00:00

Welcome back to another episode of Fathoms and Enneagram podcast. We are getting into it with the ones today.

Creek: 00:00:09

The ones.

Lindsey: 00:00:10

So much goodness. So much goodness today.

Creek: 00:00:14

All right, so let's get into this. We're gonna do defining our terms. We're going to then just get into. Y'all know the drill by now.

Abram: 00:00:25

If you've already listened to the other types, then you can just fast forward this part.

Lindsey: 00:00:29

Maybe not. Maybe they're a one and they just want to listen to this one.

Abram: 00:00:32

Yeah, do it. Do it the right way. You got to listen from the beginning. Completionists appealing to that.

Creek: 00:00:38

Awesome. So, per usual, we're going to read the definitions that we normally have done in the past episode. So here we go.

So we got a category of people or things having common characteristics. A person or thing symbolizing or exemplifying the ideal or. Or defining characteristics of something.

Lindsey: 00:01:01

Strategy, a plan of action or policy designed to achieve a major or overall aim.

Abram: 00:01:08

Pattern. Pattern. Excuse me? Pattern. Irregular and unintelligible.

Creek: 00:01:18

Intelligible.

Abram: 00:01:19

Gosh, no, that was actually an accident because I was thinking when it starts with un, it's unintelligible. But this is intelligent. Sorry.

Creek: 00:01:29

Yep. Reading pattern.

Abram: 00:01:33

A regular and intelligible form or sequence discernible in certain actions or situations.

Creek: 00:01:39

And the word of the season model. A simplified and provisional description of a system or process. A system or process to test calculations and predictions.

Lindsey: 00:01:51

We're supposed to read that one together. Guys, we talked about this, okay?

Creek: 00:01:56

Some things don't have to be perfect. Speaking of perfect. Good segue. Yes, we are talking about type one today. And you'll hear the word perfect come up a lot.

Seth, read that for us, please.

Abram: 00:02:13

Perfect.

Having all the required or desired elements, qualities or characteristics, as good as it is possible to be, make something completely free from faults or defects or as close to such a condition as possible.

Creek: 00:02:32

That's lots to talk about there.

So again, things to keep in mind as you listen to this type, there's all sorts of variants, not only in the human, but then you add instincts and instinctual bias and how it relates to type.

So there's going to be some variance on how this type expresses, especially when you add the human component to it, which we will be getting to our human today after the three teachers and again, show notes if you have any questions about terminology or want to learn more about different approaches. I know as I was listening to. As I'm listening to all to the teachers talk about the types. I'm. I'm just. I'm wanting more every Time.

And that's in some ways kind of the point. It's like, all right, here's the taste. Go find more information. But we can't offer all the information here, unfortunately.

And so, yeah, anything else, y'all, before we head into the teachers, let's go to the teachers. I need audible responses.

Abram: 00:03:40

I didn't have anything to say to that question.

Creek: 00:03:43

All right, all right. Well, here we go. The Teachers.

Lindsey: 00:03:51

Enneagram Institute.

Gayle: 00:03:55

Okay, so the last type in the body center is type 1, which is called the reformer. And this is the rational, idealistic type. They are principled people, they're purposeful, they tend to be self controlled.

And down the levels they can become perfectionistic.

We also call them sometimes the crusader or the paragon, or the wise one, or the high standard keeper, also the critic or the judge, the idealist, the ethicist. These are people who are concerned about creating order out of chaos, which doesn't make sense to anyone unless you're a one.

And if you're a one, you kind of know what that means. It's like creating order out of chaos is like creating a universe that makes sense.

It could be ethically, morally, principally, legally, lawfully, whatever it is, whatever your interests are, but there's a kind of deep belief in like an unseen intelligence of the universe that requires certain kind of order and presence and bringing that forward, discovering that, uncovering that, creating that, spreading that is very satisfying to ones. They tend to be very, very honest and forthcoming and often get in trouble because of it. They're truth bearers, they're whistleblowers.

It's very difficult for ones, at least healthy and average, ones, I'd say even lower average, to bear deceit or untruthfulness or deception of any kind. It just feels like it's so wrong and so bad. And ones tend to see things, especially in the lower levels, in terms of black and white.

And one of the directions for them is to be able to see things in more of a gray scale.

But there's a sense that most ones will admit to in one way or another, of having been in a beautiful garden of Eden, let's say, where everything was lovely and the angels were around and people were happy and kind and good to each other. And then something happened and I was expelled. I don't know what it was that I did.

But if you grow up, for instance, in the Catholic Church, as I did, you buy into the idea that you came into the world with a black spot on your soul, something that you did bad, you don't know what it was, but you know it's your fault. And ones will spend, can spend their entire life trying to get rid of that black spot.

And they do that by trying to be good, by trying to be above average in terms of their ethics and behavior and honesty and morality. And they're also often sort of do gooders in the world. They want to uplift other people.

They want to bring other people, you know, toward the light, if you will.

And of course there can be a lot of different ideas about what that means, but pretty much almost everyone in the average levels is convinced that what they believe is right or wrong or good or bad or black or white or up or down is true. And they will fight for that and they will lobby for that and they will become missionaries on behalf of that.

So there is a kind of missionary position that a lot of ones take in that they're trying to save souls in a way. Now that might be actually true, figuratively true, or it might be more that they're just trying to steer people toward a better life in some way.

But ones are often the people who are just down in the trenches fighting for what's right, doing the hard thing and trying to move civilization forward into a better place for people, into more social justice, for instance.

Micky: 00:08:19

And I would just add a small story which is in working with a Type one panel, these four women said, you know, the reason we're always reminding you of what you're doing wrong is we have this feeling that we could spare you suffering in the future if we let you know right now.

Creek: 00:08:37

And so there's this sense of earnestness.

Michael: 00:08:39

About, I want to help you because I want to alleviate your suffering.

Christopher: 00:08:43

The narrative Enneagram, type 1 has been called the perfectionist, the reformer.

We are loving the word, the name, the improver, because this really captures so much of what ones are about, is like always wanting to make things better and improve. So the worldview is for the one.

Again, from the perspective of type is that people are expected to be good and they're expected to be good in order to be accepted. And actually any kind of quote unquote, bad impulses or activity will be judged negatively.

So there's this world, the world expects people to be good, and then that goodness is what gives a sense of value or love or worth. So again, if you think of seeing the world that way, the response of the one makes sense.

It's like, I get a sense of belonging, of worth, of love by being good. And being good can mean a lot of different Things. This is where culture comes in, culture and context comes in.

But being good or being responsible, being conscientious, doing things the quote unquote right way. And you know, we might say, what is the right way?

And often for Ones, they say there's an internal sense of knowing that there can also be external kind of rules and expectations. Both can be true. But what's right again might be contextually contextual.

But they're meeting their high internal standards and they want to follow these rules. That's the response. So the strengths then is that Ones bring a kind of responsibility. They're going to do what they say they're going to do.

They're super committed, they're dedicated. I love Ones because Ones, we work on a project and they'll say, oh, and this is next time we could do it this, it would be even better.

So there's this kind of sense of constantly wanting to improve and often say they want to improve because they care sometimes those of us. And this is where the challenge can come in about a criticality. We can, we can feel the criticality from Ones.

And I often say to folks is, remember that if you receive a kind of criticism or if you hear from someone, here's what you could do to do it better, it's because the One loves you or loves the project or it's important to them. They're not going to do that for just anything. So it's just always helps us have a little bit of compassion and softness around that.

But this commitment to make things better, to have integrity, like, I'm going to these high internal standards, I'm going to follow them and I'm going to live them and I'm going to live with honesty and integrity and fairness. And I've mentioned again the challenges kind of criticality can be inflexibility. This is so hard for Ones. You know, I worked with a.

A one and a seven, and the seven was the boss. And the seven kept changing the rules every other day.

And the one was like, the one was already executing, you know, and this sense of frustration because it's like, oh my gosh, it keeps changing. And so this inflexibility can be really hard. And where anger comes out for the one is in this language of resentfulness.

So this kind of, this sense of resentfulness is really about, like, I'm doing, doing what I'm expected to do and I'm following the rules, but looking at others and they're kind of not doing that. And there's this sense of anger that comes out as resentfulness. And sometimes we say ones aren't often anger because angry isn't good.

Again I want to say that's contextual because in some contexts anger can be good. But also there's a sense of when it's righteous, you know, when it's like there's a righteous cause, it can come out more directly.

Sometimes it squishes out the aside in a kind of resentfulness. And then there's that inner critic, that self judge. That's such a hard part. We all have an inner critic and for once it is so, so, so loud.

The driver. The motivation for one is to be good, to be good, to be worthy by being right and also to make things better, to reform, to improve.

This is what drives the type. And so therefore of course the tension, the attention goes to what's right and wrong.

You know, I notice like I know ones, I'm like, oh, I want a one as an editor. You know, it's like because the attention goes right to the error, what's right or wrong and then fixing the error.

And so the open hearted quality or the virtue for one is called serenity. And I love this word I think of when I, when I say the word I am, have an image of just like this, this calm serene lake.

And there's a sense for the one when that kind of striving to be good and that striving to get it right softens and quiets. There's this ability to be with things as they are.

In other words, that it's not that the drive to make things better is bad, it's just when it becomes compulsive, I have to make things better, I have to do it right. And that serenity is really a kind of acceptance. And we sometimes in the narrative we play with that word acceptance and we use the word allowing.

Because acceptance can feel really challenging. Like I can't accept this, this is horrible. But can we allow what is to be as it is and really to meet it?

And so this is kind of like really able to kind of allow things to be as they are. And then when doing that the ones can also experience what is inherent in them.

Them which is inherent I think in all of us, which is a fundamental goodness.

Abram: 00:14:13

Ata.

Maria Jose: 00:14:16

For type ones are striving to feel perfect. That's how we define them.

That's the logic that we were talking about, that it's triggered or starts with these feeling need and then affects my thinking and then my actions. So from striving to feel perfect. How we usually frame it or how we usually describe types is typically an under stress.

So we don't say healthy or unhealthy. We don't go down that route.

What we say is not once typically focus on things like rules, behavior, that it's appropriate, making sure that they're doing the right thing. That's. Those are things that we can claim that most ones want to do. Now do they always do the right thing?

No, but they are striving to feel perfect, never feeling perfect. And that's something that people sometimes don't understand that it's like one, it's the perfect one. It's not.

It's something that they're striving to feel and they never feel enough of it. That happens with all types under stress. They can become more rigid, critical, and sometimes hindered by the fear of making a mistake.

So we try to talk about types in a way that don't portray them as just negative things. With negative things we try to say, okay, typically they're like this under stress, however, they can become more rigid and critical and all of that.

Now once. The other thing we say about each type is that they have two.

All types have two connecting points in the diagram and those we call the connecting points. And in one direction we call. We call it the neglected strategy and the other one is the support strategy.

So for type one, the neglected strategy would be type seven, striving to feel excited. And for all types, the neglected strategy is something that I do but don't do it at times when I should do it more.

And the reason for not doing it, it's that it feels almost like a threat to my preferred strategy. If I'm striving to feel perfect, feeling excited feels like I'm going to lose control. I'm not going to do the right thing.

And that's although a distortion. It's something that I carry and makes me almost avoid going there.

But there's a part of me that wants to so once have that contradiction of wanting to feel perfect and on the other hand also trying to feel excited but trying to repress it a bit. In the other direction is the support strategy, which is a strategy that reinforces my preferred strategy for type one. It's trying to feel unique.

So wands want to feel unique. So ones are striving to feel perfect. And if that's not working, I go almost without thinking and use striving to feel unique.

And that supports that reinforces my desire to feel perfect. So sometimes it could be Seen as I'm the only one who cares. So I'm trying to make it perfect and nobody's listening.

Or I'm being criticized for being too demanding. And then I use type four, like saying, oh, nobody understands me. I'm the only one who is paying attention to these things and cares about it.

And in other ways as well. We can use both strategies in adaptive and maladaptive ways.

We're here focusing more on the things that don't work, but we use them independently and in both good and bad ways.

Mario: 00:18:40

I think it's important to emphasize that point, that what we're talking about here is a reliance on a strategy. And we can use that strategy, like said, in adaptive or maladaptive ways. And that's what matters, right? I mean, you got to pick a strategy.

I mean, you're interacting with the world, so you got to go about it somehow. And it's better to have a strategy that feels comfortable to us, that we can use without having to think a whole lot.

So the one just uses that strategy of striving to feel perfect. But what everybody does when a strategy is not working is that they try something else.

Creek: 00:19:18

Right.

Mario: 00:19:18

And so we tend to go to the connecting points at that period. And again, like Mario Zae said, one of the important things to keep in mind is that one of those strategies feels uncomfortable to us.

It feels against what we want to do. So it's important to keep those dynamics about because everything else is just details around that.

Creek: 00:19:43

Well, Mickey Scott, Bay Jones, thank you for joining us today. How are you doing today?

Micky: 00:19:49

I'm doing pretty good, trying to stay warm.

Creek: 00:19:52

That's everyone. It seems in the country right now it is beginning of December.

Micky: 00:19:57

Yeah.

Creek: 00:19:59

But it was the first snowfall for many of us, and that's just a beautiful day for me. I do love winter. I'm an Indiana boy, so. Such as that. So Mickey is here to represent type one in all their gloriousness.

And so, Lindsay, let's start with a rapid fire question from you for Mickey.

Lindsey: 00:20:28

All right. Are you ready? Are you ready? Are you ready? I can't decide which one I want for you, Mickey. No, I have a couple.

Do you like me well enough to let me make you uncomfortable is my question.

Micky: 00:20:43

I mean, it might not make me uncomfortable. You don't know. And wait, I do have a clarifying question about rapid fire. Does that mean I'm supposed to answer quickly?

Lindsey: 00:20:52

We all talk as fast as we can.

Micky: 00:20:53

So short off the dome.

Lindsey: 00:20:57

Off the dome questions. Here we go. Okay, what's something you're really bad at.

Creek: 00:21:10

Financial response.

Micky: 00:21:12

It's lots of things, I don't know.

Lindsey: 00:21:15

Off the dome. Off the dome. Go, go, go.

Micky: 00:21:20

Sewing.

Creek: 00:21:23

All right. Can you do it at all? And you're just bad at it. You just don't. You've never sewed before.

Micky: 00:21:28

So, I mean, I. I can sort of sew, but, like, you know, like, sewing in a straight line, you know, without a sewing machine, like, I'm not good. I'm.

I'm not good at that. I can't cook without a recipe, so I'm bad at that. Yeah. I am a recipe cooker, and I'm a good baker. Because you need a recipe to bake.

Lindsey: 00:21:49

I feel like that's a. That's like two different. It's, like, bad, but it's good, right?

Micky: 00:21:54

Yeah.

Creek: 00:21:55

So I hate baking.

Micky: 00:21:59

It's very meditative for me.

Creek: 00:22:02

It's restrictive for me. I want to put in more flour. Okay.

Lindsey: 00:22:09

When everyone's, like, having to guzzle milk with the cookies that you make because you just got passionate about the flour.

Abram: 00:22:17

Salty Creek doesn't make cookies. He freezes popcorn.

Micky: 00:22:20

Oh, yes.

Lindsey: 00:22:21

We did just learn this.

Creek: 00:22:24

I don't anymore. I don't partake in massive amounts of sugar in the morning anymore. But, you know, Abram, what's your. What's your rep? Your off the dome question.

Abram: 00:22:35

Okay, here we go. Would. If you have to choose one, would you. Would you rather cold plunge, cold play or cold call?

Creek: 00:22:44

Cold play.

Abram: 00:22:47

That's great.

Micky: 00:22:50

Cold plunge.

I just got back from South Africa and I did cold plunges in the ocean pretty much every morning when I was staying with a friend of mine who lives right off the beach.

And the first day about took me out because we did it at night and it was windy, and it was just becoming, like, spring into summer, and so it was still quite cold. And so that time almost. I mean, I came out of the water like a cartoon character, like, and then.

Lindsey: 00:23:22

And then slipped on a bunch of like.

Micky: 00:23:25

Right, Exactly. So I was like. But then by day five, which we were doing morning swims. Easy peasy. My fingers did not feel like they were going to fall off.

It was great.

Creek: 00:23:37

I love that so much.

Lindsey: 00:23:38

I'm offended you picked that over Coldplay. Like, I don't think we can be friends, dude.

Micky: 00:23:46

I mean, if it's the song Yellow, maybe. But I'm probably going to call it fun. All right.

Lindsey: 00:23:52

All right.

Creek: 00:23:53

When was the last time you wrote Incursive?

Micky: 00:23:56

Oh, today or yesterday?

Creek: 00:23:58

Oh, I almost always write in.

Christopher: 00:24:00

Wow.

Creek: 00:24:00

Wow. Okay. Is it your own version of it? Though.

Micky: 00:24:04

Yeah, it's a. It's. It's a combination of cursive and print.

Lindsey: 00:24:09

Your printed letters are also right.

Micky: 00:24:12

Also, understand. No, it's. It's just. It's a. It's a pure mix between curse. Some letters I will print and some letters I will write cursive.

Unless I'm thinking about it and I'm. And I stick to cursive. You have to understand, Creek. This is where the age divide comes in. I was born in 77. I was taught cursive hardcore in the 80s.

You learned cursive. We were cursive kids. So I come from a generation that you write incursives. That was how you did everything in school.

Creek: 00:24:45

I was taught cursive, and then my mother gave up on me because I've seen your handwriting.

Lindsey: 00:24:52

Actually, I. I'm not surprised by that. So.

Creek: 00:24:58

Mine. I'm notorious. I know.

Lindsey: 00:25:03

I do think Curse of Kids is a great band name, though. Mickey just put that in there if you ever want to start a band.

Creek: 00:25:07

Gosh.

Lindsey: 00:25:08

Curse of Kids.

Creek: 00:25:09

Add it to your 80s cover band, curse of Kids.

Micky: 00:25:13

Wow.

Abram: 00:25:13

That is good.

Micky: 00:25:14

Somebody's gonna steal that from this podcast.

Creek: 00:25:16

That's great.

Micky: 00:25:17

You're welcome.

Lindsey: 00:25:17

You're welcome, whoever you are.

Micky: 00:25:19

Just give us a few points on your hit song, and we'll be fine, Please.

Creek: 00:25:23

All right, so a little less off the dome. Can we start off with you telling us kind of the brief story of what it was like to finally land on your type?

Micky: 00:25:36

Sure. So I was mistyped for a long time, actually. I'd have to go back and think about how long that was.

But when I first learned about the Enneagram, I learned about it in the way I think a lot of people come to it, maybe is through, like, I ran into it first in, like, progressive Christian circles. So I was going through my own kind of journey out of conservatism and evangelicalism into kind of these more kind of progressive faith spaces.

And everybody was talking about the Enneagram. What type are you? And have you heard about the Enneagram? And my friends were like, oh, my God, you're a type 8. So I just. I was like, okay.

And then when I would read books, I would only read about type 8. I didn't read the other numbers.

Creek: 00:26:31

This is what we call confirmation bias, kids.

Micky: 00:26:36

It fit enough, yeah. That I was like, yeah, of course. That must be me. And I think it was because, you know, black woman, assertive.

I cared about, you know, fighting for the little guy, you know, whatever. Like, those kinds of things enough of it connected. And then I stumbled upon Richard Rohr's explanation of type 1, in particular, the Inner Critic.

And when I read about the Inner critic, I was like, wow, not everybody has a constant ticker tape running of everything you've ever done wrong. And like, like every day it's just like, you know, like if you're watching cnn, just like the ticker tape at the bottom, that's kind of how I.

That's one of the ways I envision my inner critic. And that made me realize, oh, well, they can't see what's happening inside of me. So, of course, the outward.

The way I'm presenting outward makes it seem like I'm an eight. And so that's when I knew that I was one. It was, it was primarily the stuff around Inner Critic. And then I read more extensively and it.

And it made sense. The whole profile really made sense.

Creek: 00:27:54

I don't know if you can even remember this, but, like, the weeks after that discovery, what was that like? Did you have a hard time convincing yourself or was a clean switch? What kind of things started making more sense?

Micky: 00:28:09

Yeah, I don't think I had too much of an attachment to it.

Like, when I work with people now or even hear people talking about kind of being mistyped and, and then finding out they're a different type, people can have a lot of grief or feel like they wasted their time or did something wrong. And I, I just, I don't think I felt any of that. If I, if I do, it's been lost to.

To history and memory, but I, I certainly now don't feel like it's wasted to spend time kind of like essentially dealing with another archetype. You know, like, there's probably something in that that, that did resonate with you that you got out of it. And so I think I did.

You know, there was a lot of it that I did find valuable.

Creek: 00:28:58

So can you give me an example?

Micky: 00:29:00

I mean, I think, I think this is probably a cultural overlay, but people, I think, do consider me assertive. I do really care about justice issues. Like, that is true.

I'm going to probably say something about what I think is right and wrong, but I wasn't framing it and right and wrong as an eight, you know, so I was still doing my work around who I am as a person to, you know, like, think about that. And honestly, like, in the early years of interacting with the Enneagram, I wasn't. I don't know that I was really doing anything with it.

You know, what I'M saying, like, I think for a lot, for a lot of people, when they encounter this model for the first time, they just kind of, you know, see it as a. A label and a way to understand yourself. And I think that's where I parked it for a long time.

So I don't know that I was doing a lot with it in the early years. It was just a way for me to be a part of the conversation to kind of what. What it did do when I found.

When I found the Enneagram and even at 8 and then, you know, understand that was a 1. It did help me understand that there are kind of different kinds of people in the world.

I'm not alone in my way of being like, I'm not uniquely bad or messed up or even in some ways, like not uniquely good. You know, like I am a person, like everybody else is a person. And we have these patterns. And so I'm not alone in my patterning.

And I think that helped me. The one I'm like, usually when I like tell my. Tell my like Enneagram origin story, I'm like. It helped me not hate myself, which when I'm really.

When I've got that inner critic really dialed up and she's in the driver's seat, right?

Like there was some like self hatred, some, some, you know, this deep criticality of myself and finding out that there were others like me helped me let go of some of that criticality, helped me not hate myself so much. So I was doing work around it in like a softening towards myself.

There was still much work to do down the road, but that first work was really just in the. In the seeing myself in a pattern. I could then relax, maybe my judgment of that pattern a bit.

Lindsey: 00:31:18

I think this is a great time to just pop in here and say, like, if you're listening to this and you are a person who is using the criteria of caring about justice to tell people that they are eights. It is not too late to repent, my friend. It is not too late to change your ways. That is bad criteria for helping people decide their aids.

If, if you care about justice, all nine types can care about justice. Am I right?

Abram: 00:31:49

There's one. I don't know. Just kidding.

Lindsey: 00:31:52

Stop it. So, yes, I just wanted to get on my soapbox real quick about that, but I do have a quick question about the inner critic.

You may have already answered this, so it might feel redundant at this point, but it was a question I had earlier when you talked about the self hatred, but What I was wondering is, is the inner critic pretty obvious or is it sneaky? Like, does it always seem sound like a bully or does it sometimes sound like a friend? Well, does that make sense?

Micky: 00:32:24

Yes, I guess I just wouldn't use maybe such clean categories, right? Like, so I would like understanding the idea of parts, like with internal family systems. I'm not a therapist.

I don't have, you know, I have a little training in ifs, but not enough, just enough to make me dangerous.

Creek: 00:32:45

You're dangerous. You must be an eight.

Micky: 00:32:49

Exactly. But I like this idea of parts, and I think it can work with, even with like our enneagram stuff.

So I have heard it said that type ones have the strongest inner critic of all types. Now, who knows? Like, what does that mean? Who knows?

But I do find that people who, you know, identify with this strategy can typically, if you ask them if they have a, you know, an inner critic, and particularly if you ask if it's a persistent, regular companion, they're going to say yes. There's. There's a pretty universal experience of this inner critic. And I think it can be different for everybody.

For me, I would say it's not, you know, I don't want to label it as a bully or even a friend. It's a part of me, right? Like all of whatever's inside, like, those are all parts of me. So my inner critic is a part of me.

And you know, one of the things that you do in IFS is you realize how all of these parts are trying to help you. Because when some, when it's a. When it's your enemy, your bully, you're kind of like, I need that part to go away. I need that part not to talk to me.

And if you do that, they will usually just try to get louder because this is a part of you that's trying to help you.

So my inner critic, she's, you know, even like, I will say she, like some people name their inner critic, but for me, I'm just like, she is legitimately trying to help.

Lindsey: 00:34:27

Yeah.

Micky: 00:34:27

Now, some people help people by bullying them. Some people help by being sneaky by, you know. Well, I'm just saying that if you would just get up 10 minutes earlier.

See, you just like, it can come in all kinds of shades. But her motivation is to help me. And usually like a part like that is a younger part, right?

Like, this is a younger part of me that had to learn how to navigate situations where being as close to perfect as possible would help me out. Right. So if I Can respect that. I had an amazing therapist one time that was like, listen, your inner critic doesn't have to go away.

She just, again, as a younger part, she just can't drive. We don't let the eight year old drive the car. They have to sit in the back in their car seat, in their booster seat and you know, play on the tablet.

Like you got to be quiet in the back seat. They can't drive. So when she goldfish, right. So like when she tries to drive, I have to be like, I hear you. I hear you, sweetie.

I see that you're worried that we're going to go off course for some reason you're trying to correct me. Now. It could be a legitimate criticism. That would be helpful. You know, a correction that would be helpful in that moment.

It probably is going to be a little over the top, but is there a kernel of truth in it? Maybe so it's not that I never listen to my inner critic. It's not that I silence the inner critic.

And I hear people use that kind of phrasing around the inner critic, you know, silencing and you know, you have to learn to put it to bed or whatever. And I'm just like, like, I don't need it to disappear. I need to be in good dialogue with it.

And know when I'm like, actually today you're going to sit down and you're going to be quiet. We're not, you're not part of the conversation today. That part gets to not be a part.

But most of the time, if I'm going to ignore her, she's going to, she's going to be louder. So it's, it's not, you know, I don't want to. That's, that's why it's, it's like, it's about developing a relationship versus like eliminating.

Lindsey: 00:36:40

Yeah, yeah.

Creek: 00:36:41

Sometimes it just needs a bowl of taquitos.

Lindsey: 00:36:44

Sometimes just.

Micky: 00:36:46

Yeah.

I first of all totally agree with you, Lindsay, about the whole like eights are into justice because I coach people that are becoming enneagram teachers, right. And so they come to me to like learn how to type people, learn how to do panels.

And I get this comes up quite a bit because this is in some schools teaching, right, that like people or they hear it somewhere, however it is, they come to this understanding.

And the way that I kind of parse it is that because eights are, are very focused on control and power, and power being just the ability to impact things. And you know, that may come from like them needing to Protect themselves. And there's this.

There's this desire to protect someone who can't protect themselves, right? To, like, protect the innocent being themselves. Others that they deem innocent could be then the underdog, right?

Which has then I think, gotten mixed in with. They care about all justice.

And it's not about justice as much as it's about the underdog or the innocent or the person without power, the person who can't control their environment. That's what they're interested in. Right?

Lindsey: 00:38:11

So like a projection, It's.

Micky: 00:38:13

Well, I don't. I mean, I don't even need to know if it's a projection. It's just like, that's the actual issue They're. They're actually focused on.

Whereas I think type ones, I'm interested in what's right and wrong. And so sometimes that might not be. Line up with the underdog or something. I don't know. It's just. It's like a slight difference.

Creek: 00:38:34

That's good.

Micky: 00:38:35

You know what I'm saying? And for me, I'm like, how can I be as right or as good as possible? How can I be aligned with right and good things in the world?

And so it is a slightly different thing. Whereas both would be perceived as interested in justice issues, but we're just coming at it from slightly different angles.

Creek: 00:38:57

I would say, for me, interested in justice. But the angle is, are we seeing the full picture and all the nuances? And like, if I smell inauthentic inauthenticity, or I.

Or I sense some sort of dehumanizing and de. Individualizing, that's what. That's what gets my hackles up. So. But it's. But it's just a.

It's a different angle based on, you know, my specific wounding.

Lindsey: 00:39:27

Awesome. Love this conversation so far.

Creek: 00:39:29

Um, so far.

Lindsey: 00:39:30

So, Mickey, I'm. So far. We'll see how that keeps going. Mickey, I want to know from you what particular models of the Enneagram you've studied?

Where have you chosen to get. Get certified? What model do you use with your clients, with yourself most often? Where do you find yourself landing?

Micky: 00:39:51

So I started with the School of Conscious Living. Frankly, I started with them 1. It was online before everybody else was online. So it was pre pandemic.

And the kind of main teacher of that school is a queer woman. And I was like, oh, the teachers are old white dudes. So if I can get a different variation of teacher, I'm gonna go for it.

Lindsey: 00:40:12

Right?

Micky: 00:40:13

She had learned from and knew all the old white dudes So I was like, I'm getting the same teaching just, just down the road. It's fine. So those were like two of the main criteria. And then I did the narrative enneagram and I am certified through both of those schools.

And then I most recently have done Awareness to Action International and that's. And I now work with them. Ta with them.

I love ATA for me and my current work, it feels like what I've been able to understand and like synthesize and in some ways simplify by using the Awareness to Action method is most helping me with my clients. I work primarily in the social sector, so people in philanthropy and nonprofit. And so I'm able to bring every.

All my kind of education and the ways that I work and everything to that, but still use this kind of model that in a lot of ways was. Was created for and with the business sector. So it works out really well for me.

But I still like primarily when I'm teaching other people to be teachers. That's with the narrative. So I kind of work in two different systems for two different things, which is interesting for my brain.

Creek: 00:41:42

Yeah.

Micky: 00:41:43

Because I do think there's.

Abram: 00:41:46

A thing.

Micky: 00:41:46

For type ones that we can be quite evangelical about the way we've found our one true way. It can be there's resistance on the way in. But then once we buy in, buddy, we're in.

And Creek is laughing because he knew me on the way in where I was like, I don't know about this. And now I'm like wearing an ATA T shirt to Kroger. Have you heard about our Lord and savior?

Lindsey: 00:42:16

Got your pom pom, right?

Micky: 00:42:18

Ata. Because I'm gonna tell you so I, you know, do you have tracks?

Lindsey: 00:42:24

You stand on the corner with the track?

Micky: 00:42:26

I kind of, yeah. So yeah, I. I'm trying to live in this big enneagram world. And still I'm fairly convinced of. Of what I know to be true.

Abram: 00:42:42

Well, I think it seems fitting that we move into the next sections.

That section that we've done with each of our human interviews where we ask you to give us a collection of five words that you think best describe yourself. I think it's quite accurate that sometimes your. Your any type shows up in the way you describe yourself. You know, we all have kind of a self concept.

Right. And so words can be revealing for how we show up in the world.

So are there five words that you would use five adjectives to tell people about yourself?

Micky: 00:43:18

Okay. I think I would say thoughtful, funny, considerate, intellectual.

I was going between Intellectual and like, academic, but I think intellectual is better. And maybe, maybe curious, but I don't know that I'm always curious, but hesitantly curious. Yeah. Like maybe it's inquisitive.

It's a particular shade of curious.

Abram: 00:44:01

Maybe. Okay, I have a follow up then. Feel free to pick one word that maybe comes to mind. That. Or something that might just be easiest for you here.

But where. Since these words tend to be around framing up, like a way that we think of ourselves. Right. Where do you think you learned being this way?

Out of one of the five. And why was that valuable? Where did you learn that?

Micky: 00:44:25

So the one that comes to mind is the intellectual piece. I basically grew up on a college campus.

My mother was the director of Disabled Student Services at UT Knoxville, and I just grew up hanging out at that campus. And I, I mean, I've always. College wasn't a question, it was a assumption that my mother made very clear would be happening in my life.

But I've always loved to read. I mean, as a little kid, I just had books and books and books. I love the library. I couldn't get enough from reading. I'm a words girl.

I'm not a, like, numbers, math makes me twitch. But I love words, so, you know, I, I, I, I love to communicate.

I am a talker, you know, and I, I kind of, I realize I do verbally process things, so I just think, you know, I pretty much. I'm always reading something, watching something, I. This constant, like, consuming of information.

And I do think, but I also will purposefully not get information if I'm not interested in changing because of the new information.

So, so, like, if everybody's watching a new documentary about, like, the food system, and I don't, I'm like, I'm, I don't want to watch it because I'm not going to stop eating Pop Tarts. No. No offense, Kellogg. We are.

Lindsey: 00:46:17

No, no, no. We're mad at Kellogg's, but they're being jerks.

Micky: 00:46:20

Oh, are we?

Lindsey: 00:46:21

It's fine. I'll fill you in later.

Micky: 00:46:23

Okay, great. Okay.

But, like, I, So I take that information gathering very seriously because I know, I see it as, like, I'm going to have to make a decision based on what I know now know.

Like, at 13, 14, somewhere in there, I became a vegetarian because I literally, I spent some time with my dad and my stepmom, who at the time were vegetarians, and I, I read Diet for a Small Planet for myself as a teenager. And back then there weren't a lot of Vegetarian fast foods, like, you know, like burgers or whatever.

So I like went to the equivalent of like whole foods and bought lentils and. Right. Like I taught myself to cook vegetarian combining proteins as a 15 year old because I was determined to be a vegetarian. Right.

So like that's how seriously the intake of information is for me. But it's to an end. Right. It's like to then make a decision about a thing.

Abram: 00:47:24

Yeah.

Micky: 00:47:25

So that's a big part of kind of how I work in the world.

Abram: 00:47:29

I don't know how to quite connect this, but my, my wife is a one and the way that she communicates choosing to go certain directions and not is that if I see this, like there's, there's rules that she will usually follow and then she decides but that I have better ways of doing it. So I'm not going to like, like I kind of am connecting that a little bit to how you're communicating.

Like I'm choosing to not go down that route even though other people have, you know, with, with the documentary or whatever.

Lindsey: 00:48:06

Yeah.

Abram: 00:48:06

Is what, what is it that. Is there a defining thing for you that's like I have a. I like my way. It's.

My way is more right or better or what is the, the connection there for you? Does that make. Question make sense?

Micky: 00:48:21

Yeah, yeah. I mean, I think I just usually feel like I've made. If I've done my research, I've done my research, you know, I know what I know.

So like, I mean this, I don't know if this quite fits what you're saying, but like, like people are talking raw milk. Sorry to all your raw milk avid raw milk listeners, but like that's been all over TikTok recently. It's like people are, are into raw milk again.

Or maybe it's always been there. There's probably always been a, you know, a subset of raw milk drinkers out there. I've already done that. All right. So I already did that.

as raising my children in the: 2000

The thing is I just, I like, I didn't do a whole lot of research then. I like read the, you know, the price book that everybody reads about raw milk and why it's so good for you.

But I did like, I wasn't so on the Internet back then, but now like you can really Google that and you can find out in about two seconds about, you know, salmonella and whatever. Like, you can, you can do the research on both sides now. And because I've already done that, I'm not going to re litigate it.

Like, I already know what I know. I don't do raw milk anymore. Like, now I believe in things like germs. Like, I believe. I'm not.

I don't think that big dairy is trying to keep me from raw milk anymore. Right. Like, I've already done that and I'm just not going to do it again. I'm not going to re research it.

Whereas somebody else might be like, well, maybe I should consider it again. And no, no, now I'm cleaning clear, right?

So when I make a decision or when I get like, I'm just in a different, I have a different maybe set of parameters by which I make decisions now. Or I maybe I just feel like I have more information now. And because I've already done that one thing, I'm not gonna, like, I'm not, I'm not open.

I'm, I'm like, I actually am not open. If somebody was like, well, you're just not open to more information. I'm like, actually, I'm not. I'm good now.

I am clear on how I feel about pasteurization. And I don't think it's bad. I'm okay with that. Right.

Like, if you have, if you're, if you're sure you have ironclad information that pasteurization is bad for you, I'm probably not going to entertain it because I know what I know now. Could I be missing out? Maybe.

But I'm not interested in reopening that case, you know, so for me, once I feel clear about something, I probably am not going to be interested in new information. And, and that can come up in, in big and small ways. Like, my partner is a seven.

And I think this is both sevenness and some, and some past relationship stuff. But like, she'll often present me with lots of information. Like say we're going to decide on somewhere to go eat.

She might present me with like five restaurants. Seven restaurants. I'll be like, that's enough. Good. Great. Then we'll decide on the restaurant.

And then usually close to the time to go, she might be like, I have. What about these three more options? I'll be like, we made a choice yesterday. We're going to go with that choice that we made yesterday.

You don't have to make. You don't have to provide me with any More possibilities. I'm good. Right. So, like, one side, once we've decided, I don't want to make another choice.

Lindsey: 00:51:44

Yeah, that makes sense to me.

Creek: 00:51:46

Which, yeah, it makes a lot of sense. You mentioned your journey, learning about awareness to action. What's the difference there? Like, what caused that?

Enough inquisitive and curiosity to a new way of thinking about the Enneagram.

Micky: 00:52:07

Well, I was still looking for something different. In fact, for me, it was. It was a very particular thing.

I was really trying to understand and incorporate the, you know, what most of the Enneagram world calls the instincts that at ata, we call the instinctual biases. So, like, I was trying to do some work around that with another person. And when I found. When I saw what was already being done, I was like, oh, this.

This is basically what we're trying to do. So let me. Let me see what they're doing. Let me see if this is what I've been looking for.

Lindsey: 00:52:41

Right?

Micky: 00:52:42

So if I'm looking for a particular thing, I want to see if it's like, I don't know that I thought I didn't have a right way, but I was like, I'm trying to find a better way. Like a way that's going to be useful. Maybe it's the right way, but I'm trying to find this thing that I was looking for.

I was like, there's gotta be a better way to use this piece of the Enneagram that. I just don't feel like it's just not working for me yet. I don't feel like I found the right way to do it. So when I.

When I saw that, I was like, this is enough for me to at least go in this direction and explore it. So that's what it was for me is finding that piece. And I literally just thought, I'll just. I'll just pull this piece.

That's probably what's going to happen. Like, I'll just be able to get this piece and go on about my business.

And instead it kind of reorganized my whole understanding of the model of the Enneagram. So I'm like, dad, comment now. Now I got to rework the whole thing. But if it's valuable enough for me to rework the whole thing, I will.

I'm not going to forever try and, like, hold on to the old thing. I mean, I will for a while. Like, usually I say, like, I have to cry about it first. I didn't have to cry about this part, but I just.

I had to, like, kick and Scream a little bit and be like, I don't. I don't think so.

Creek: 00:54:06

Why?

Micky: 00:54:08

Because I already did it. Like, I already learned one way. Why do I have to learn another way?

Creek: 00:54:12

Something's interesting.

Lindsey: 00:54:13

I'm wondering, is there. Is it efficiency related? Is it energy related? Is it like, I need to. Is there something feeling of I need to conserve some sort of energy for, like.

I'm just curious where that. What, what the motivation behind that is. Because efficiency is the word that's coming up for me as I'm listening to you.

Micky: 00:54:34

I mean, efficiency might be part of it, but also because I am quite evangelical about something. When I.

Creek: 00:54:41

And when you say evangelical about something, can you be. Can you define your term on that?

Micky: 00:54:46

Yeah, I mean, I'm. I am going to tell the world about it. I'm going to speak about it. I'm going to, you know, make disciples. I mean, right?

Go out, go, ye, therefore, and make disciples of all nations. I'm going to do it. And so I. I speak pretty definitively.

Like, I have videos out there, you know what I'm saying, where I've like, said this way about the Enneagram, or I definitely have stuff out there where I've talked about the Enneagram being ancient, you know, and I don't believe that anymore. So now I'm like, there's a little bit of, like, here I am learning in public again. And, you know, I used to probably not be it.

I know I wasn't as okay about that in the past, but now I'm like, okay, fine.

I would rather be the kind of person who learns in public and is able to maybe even demonstrate growth and change than, like, be so worried that people will judge that I can be.

Lindsey: 00:55:51

More perfect if I admit what I.

Micky: 00:55:56

Look at us putting our ETA training to you. So, yeah, I mean, I'm, you know, I. Because I think I do care about being. I would almost not say right. I would say accurate. I care about accuracy.

I care about. Which is a form of rightness. I mean, I'll be clear.

Creek: 00:56:19

Like, that feels like an evolved rightness.

Micky: 00:56:23

Yes, Maybe I'll take evolved. I'll take that. There is a, like, I want it to be as accurate, as useful as. Which also feels like, right. And so if I can get closer to that.

And that's even tricky to say, right, because I'm not trying to say someone else's way is wrong, but I do think there's a. I think there's a rightness for me, but I also think, yeah, there's a way to accurately explain this concept.

And if we can get closer to that accurateness, that's what I want to do. So I think that's when I'm able to. I think that's when I'm able to shift and make an adjustment. Right.

I think, like, even going back to the raw milk, what I was trying to get to is like, I want. I want my family to be healthy. I want them to have something that's pure. I want them to have food that's close to the source and local and healthy.

And so when somebody comes to me and says, oh, well, what you have to do is get raw milk from Amish people in Kentucky, I'm like, okay, I'll do that. And then when I'm like, oh, wait, there are pathogens in this that could be damaging, maybe I should adjust. I wasn't quite aware of the risks.

Okay, now I'll adjust to those risks and seek a different thing. I'm still actually interested in the same thing.

It's not that I've abandoned this desire for healthy food for my family, but when I get new information, hopefully I'll adjust to that new information. And I think that's where what's happened with my enneagram training is like, I don't think my original training is wrong.

I could still teach from those that material, and it would be helpful and useful. I think what I'm hopefully doing as I move along is, like, getting more accurate in even my way of understanding.

So I can then express it in a way that will be more useful to more people.

Lindsey: 00:58:37

Yeah, great.

Abram: 00:58:39

I'll just say what I hear you. You naming, Is that right? Seems to have a closed connotation to it. Whereas accuracy is more open to change as needed to make it more clear.

Micky: 00:58:54

Yeah, I think so. I don't. I don't know if everyone would understand it that way. That's where it feels like. Maybe I'm just like, you know, am I just parsing words here?

Like. But it's like, it feels important to me, but I think somebody with a different strategy would just talk about it differently.

But for me, I think that what I'm actually seeking is accuracy. And I'm not trying to hold it over anybody or make somebody else bad, but it has to continue to work for me.

And as I evolve and change and even see what my clients need, I need to be able to do that in a way that makes sense.

Lindsey: 00:59:37

I'm curious about the word funny. What is your flavor of funny?

Creek: 00:59:43

Why do you think you're funny.

Micky: 00:59:46

Why do you think you're funny? I think I'm hilarious. I mean, I am funny.

Lindsey: 00:59:55

You all know me. What is your flavor of funny? Because I think, like, are you, are you punny? Is it dry humor? Is it sarcasm?

Is it like, you know, acquired sense of humor that a lot of people won't get or is like, what is it? What is it like, what does it feel like?

Micky: 01:00:13

Yeah, first of all, I find type ones quite funny. And I think that's not the stereotype of us. Like, the stereotype is definitely like, that we're very straight laced, very, like stiff. You know, I.

One thing is, I think one's try to be appropriate.

Lindsey: 01:00:29

Yeah.

Micky: 01:00:30

And so if it's appropriate to, to be funny, then we'll be funny. Like, we will do stand up. You know, like, we can really add that to a room if that's like what's called for.

You know, again, not to like, make this a, an ATA thing, but I'm also a navigator, so I'm interested in like, the social dynamics of a group. So I. Humor is, I think, probably part of that navigation that I do in the world. So I, I. But my kind of funny, I think, is I do sarcasm quite well.

There's a, there is a way, I think that when you suppress anger for a long time, and I spent many, many, many years suppressing anger, I think you. That you can sometimes develop a humor to deal with that suppression of anger. It's got to come out somehow.

So you're going to, you know, sarcasm is a way for anger to come out, for disgust or irritation to come out. Is. Is sarcasm and kind of underhanded kind of wit about both yourself and other people.

And I think I do that also kind of a maybe the dry slash dark humor of like, also that kind of thing. And I can be a big talker. I'm not gonna do anything about it, but I'm definitely gonna say things. So that's how it comes out.

Abram: 01:01:54

Yeah.

Micky: 01:01:56

So I, Yeah, I mean, I think it's. It's usually that kind of thing versus, like, I'm not gonna necessarily tell a joke.

You know, I'm gonna make a little snide comment and people are like, oh, spicy over there.

Creek: 01:02:14

And I'm like that. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So, kind of transitioning a little bit more into the last couple questions here.

Given your perspective as a one, what's one caution that you'd give someone that you've had to learn the hard way that you think that if this, if the listeners could Kind of live with this perspective that it would really kind of revolutionize how they approach life.

Micky: 01:02:41

My caution would be that you can't hate yourself, hurt yourself, punish yourself, criticize yourself into goodness or into being what you want or like you can. But that ends up leading to self sabotage, eating disorders, addiction. What we even talk about with ones of like backdoor behavior, right?

Of like where. Or trapdoor behavior, like where you're gonna do the very thing you don't want to do. Right.

Like you can try to just, you know, or like many, many people in therapy because their parents like tried to punish them, harm them into like being the perfect little person. And there is a way that I think I have tried to do that kind of thing to myself for a very long time. I thought if.

And part of that is, is also, you know, even the way I was raised and other, like my mother and grandmother trying to protect me. Right. If I can be harsh with you, then you'll be able to deal with the world. Right.

And so there's a way that we think if we can be harsh enough with ourselves that we'll get it together and be able to deal with whatever the world gives us. And I'm.

I am more and more learning to be gentle with myself, to be loving with myself, to be, to just be so gentle and caring and precious with me so that I can do the same for others, but really just so I can do it for me, like it's okay to just be gentle with me.

Lindsey: 01:04:28

Yeah.

Micky: 01:04:29

And that has been a hard, hard fought for lesson that I still have to have to welcome into my life on a regular basis.

Creek: 01:04:38

That's great.

Lindsey: 01:04:40

This question might be connected to that, but it doesn't have to be necessarily. But is there an action or a habit or practice that has required some effort on your part, but it's really, really changed how you approach life?

Micky: 01:04:58

I mean, I have a lot of practices. Some are, I do in more acute situations. Like right now I'm in a particularly stable and like resourced time in my life.

And so I think a lot of the things I've learned through somatic practices, like somatic coaching, where I've been coached through, you know, different movement modalities and spiritual practices. Like a lot of that kind of movement now is, I wouldn't say it's like habitual, but it's like I can just pull it when I need it now in some ways.

And so it lives in me less as a pr, like an individual practice that's taken out and it's Like, I do these things. So one of those, for me is movement is like, I. I pretty much exercise every day. Like, I do yoga. I do. I walk, I lift weights.

And I don't know if I would call that a practice, but, like, I know I need to move my body. So sometimes I do somatic practices that are specific practices in that, like, world, you know, and they. But they were. They.

They maybe contain, like, shaking your body or making certain sounds. Right. Some of that I might also do while I'm lifting weights. Right. So it's like. But I know I have to do those kinds of things to stay resourced.

And so I think the point of learning those practices is being able to integrate them, to be able to pull them out when you need them. And I think that's kind of the, like, learning that I'm in right now, that I'm still learning new practices, and so I can integrate them.

But I'm at a.

I'm in a place right now where I'm doing maybe more maintenance in a lot of those practices than having to learn them for the first time, which is different than where I was, say, two years ago.

Abram: 01:07:10

I love it. Well, Mickey, we just want to say thank you for your time.

Thank you for coming on and, yeah, just sharing, I guess, some of your unique experience as a human who primarily does oneness.

We are really grateful for, I think, especially the way that you hold multiple streams with an open hand, not just in the enneagram world, but in other ways of thought as well. I think it requires a certain capacity and level of maturity to do that.

So just grateful for your voice and your insight and wanted to ask for our listeners where people might be able to find you, to work with you or maybe even to see you dance.

Micky: 01:07:58

for sure. My new obsession in: 2025

Lindsey: 01:08:12

I would love to.

Micky: 01:08:13

It's a very Detroit. It's a very Detroit thing. Like line dances, you know, like the wobble or, you know, that kind of thing. Cha cha slide. Those are. In Detroit.

They're called hustles. Different. They're called different things around the country, but it's huge in Detroit culture. So that's my. There will be dancing for sure.

But if people want to find me, the easiest place other than a dance floor in Detroit is mickeyscapejones.com I'm the only Mickey Scappa Jones that exists in the world. So you can google me, but you'll never know what you can find. So just go straight to the website and you can find everything there.

My YouTube channel. I do have a newsletter that goes out about twice a month and people tell me it's good and interesting. So I send out.

I do usually have a little Enneagram segment but I also also talk about all other things, especially in the social sector and I share other events and books and resources that amazing people that I know are contributing to and are a part of. So would love to connect to people through my newsletter.

Creek: 01:09:21

Amazing. Thanks so much.

Abram: 01:09:31

Type document Booby tackle by the time. Well, that was a ride. That was. No, that was fun. That was good. That was great.

I just, you know, one of the things that I really love about what we're doing with this season is you all know me, just the variety that we are getting to hear to communicate the same thing kind of. Right. We're hearing all the different variations of perspective to get a fuller, hopefully clearer picture. But it's just really.

I just think it's fun to hear from people who are not ones, people who are professionals who are talking about oneness and then we get to hear from the actual human and then we get to talk about it and this is just a fun thing. I think it's great.

Creek: 01:10:23

So what. Have one. What is your personal experience with ones in your life perhaps? Yeah, your experiences, anomalies, you've seen that sort of thing.

Abram: 01:10:34

So. Oh man, my brain just goes into. Explodes into 19,000 different directions here.

So one thing comes to mind is my wife who identifies as a preserving one, also known as a self preservation one, depending on which of the school you're listening to. And she, she would. She. She's never really identified with the word perfect because she knows it's not a reality. Like it's.

It's not going to be something I can ever have or attain. Her language is more than. She identifies just with the word right or wrong or incorrect or mistakes.

And I resonate with that because maybe she's just lived some life, but she also knows, like there's no such thing as a completed thing and perfection as like more of a process is, I think, where she orients herself. Now her resentment or her frustration can maybe be more from a place of wishing this thing was already finished, you know, like it never is.

Like there's a frustrated idealism there. But she's never really identified with that word perfect. Seeing herself that way or something. She's even Trying to attain because it's not an option.

Creek: 01:11:57

And then I guess that's an. That's a question of. I did enjoy the word from. I think it was narrative that they were talking about improving.

Abram: 01:12:12

Yeah.

Creek: 01:12:14

But then like thinking backwards like that, there's a difference between I think I can get to perfection versus I want to feel like something. I want to feel that inner state of perfection. And how do I do that is by improving something. So there's. There seems to be. It's an interesting play.

But as. Yeah, I'm not sure like calling someone the perfectionist works.

Lindsey: 01:12:44

Right. It's confusing, I think when you start to consider like the subtypes, especially because of what people think of when they think of a perfectionist.

But what I've noticed about ones is that they, they're not perfectionists across the board.

They're not necessarily people who have super clean houses or are, you know, their outfits are super put together or have like the most perfect hygiene or whatever, you know, you want to say about it what a perfectionist could look like. It's not that. Right. So how does A1 decide what they want to put their energy toward improving what matters to them?

Abram: 01:13:28

I think that's pretty important. And I do think that's where the subtypes come in because that's where you aim your oneness. Right. It's in one of those instinctual arenas.

Creek: 01:13:39

And I think Mickey demonstrated that. Well, once she's. She's constantly trying to find the thing that, you know, that works really well that is accurate is all those things.

But once she decides, she's probably not going to change her mind. But if there's a. If there's an opening, she's going to be ravenous to try to figure out how to fill that opening. Yeah, I think it really.

Even in the situation where she was talking about the difference between eights and ones, I really enjoyed that comparison of the care for protecting the underdog versus this just isn't right. There's something not. There's something wrong here. And yeah, I think that was a really interesting take.

Lindsey: 01:14:33

Yeah.

Creek: 01:14:33

But I think like, so with Reason Hudson, like calling it the reformer.

I think that that works to a certain extent, especially for like the, like the sexual or transmitting one in my experience, where they are trying to change society. Maybe. I don't know if the Reza Hudson school would agree with that. They might say social is that.

But again, that just kind of depends on where you draw the lines.

Lindsey: 01:15:04

Would you say that maybe a navigating or transmitting one would Be more vocal about the reform, maybe more publicly.

Creek: 01:15:19

I think in ATA transmitting, one would definitely be that.

Lindsey: 01:15:24

Whereas, like, you know, like Sarah, as a preserving one, probably does not enjoy her reforming to be in the limelight.

Abram: 01:15:32

I mean, a lot of it is, actually. But she doesn't take. She doesn't want to have the recognition for it, even though the face of it.

Lindsey: 01:15:41

Right.

Abram: 01:15:41

Yeah.

Creek: 01:15:42

Yeah, she doesn't want the recognition for it, but she also doesn't want to be ignored for it either.

Lindsey: 01:15:47

Mm.

Micky: 01:15:48

Yeah.

Abram: 01:15:48

And I should say she does want the recognition for it, but she's less likely to, you know, showcase that it was her, at least explicitly or overtly, or be like you just said, Lizzie, the face of it. Yeah, she does want the recognition. Recognition for it. And her reputation matters. Yeah, yeah, but. But I. Yeah, I do think it's like the spectrum of.

Of how the type gets expressed. I think. I think it's important to name. Like, this is. You know, everybody wants to feel like themselves. Right.

And so you're always acting in ways that help you come to help you get back to a sense of homeostasis or a sense of feeling like yourself. So I think for ones, it's about, how can I do this? Well, how can I do this with precision and accuracy? How can I do this with excellence?

And when I don't have as much control over that, or. Yeah, I think that's where stress comes in, because I'm just going here because I think it's important, because people are going to be.

There are new people to the Enneagram that might be listening that are still wondering what type they are. Right. And you might see yourself in oneness, but you might see yourself in some other numbers too.

And I was just thinking how I want to be right, too, depending on the certain situation and depending on what kind of thing I'm attending to right now. I'm striving to feel perfect as well, depending on what it is.

But I think this is like you have more of a temperamental sensitivity to experiencing mistakes or stress coming when you're not able to do something the right way. I think there's more of a sensitivity.

Creek: 01:17:43

For this kind of person and how you're defining perfection. And I forget who said this, but.

Abram: 01:17:51

The person contextualizes the type. Oh, that's trying to. Sorry, sorry.

Creek: 01:17:56

Take that out. No, we're aware.

Abram: 01:17:58

Take it out.

Creek: 01:18:00

Try the trying to be good. That kind of constant trying to be good. And like, the difference is, like, what is good to me is not necessarily part of a moral code.

Or the correct way of being. But more self expression is what it is like an authentic self expression for me is what it is to be good. Yeah. And where there's like an internal.

Whenever I've talked to like Maria Jose about oneness, it's like there's this internal. This is what I think is the global existential rightness of what it is to be a human. And I need to measure up to that.

Abram: 01:18:54

Yeah, I think that was the narrative and they were saying that to be good is to be accepted. There's something expected of you in order to be accepted.

And that's why the responsibility piece plays in here so intensely sometimes, why there's a need to be an improver because it's your responsibility. I think obligation is a really big thing here.

I mean, this is something I see in my wife, but in also any other one that I've ever met is, oh, nobody else is going to do it. Well, it just needs to be done. I guess I'm going to do it. There's like a. It's. It always comes back to them and well, if no one else is going to.

It's not just my responsibility, but it is a responsibility to be a human being. So somebody's got to take care of it. Nobody else is. Well, I guess it's me. I guess I'm the only adult here.

Creek: 01:19:55

You know, which is. Which is that line to four in a lot of ways.

Abram: 01:19:59

Oh yeah.

Creek: 01:20:01

Is this is. I'm the only one that is either doing it right, capable of doing this, all those sort of things.

And as I was listening to Mickey, I was like recognizing my line to one as well of how obsessed I am about whether it's aesthetic or the feel of something. And I get really decently rigid in certain respects, regards. But it's different. It's more in the. The way of aesthetic or authenticity or what it is.

We're just having a conversation the other day with a friend who just like a. How one is supposed to socially and authentically and honest honestly interact with somebody.

And we had difference of opinions on what is the correct thing to do in that. And I got really worked up and then was like, wow, why am I so worked up about this? But yeah, I think that's a common mistyping.

Lindsey: 01:21:03

One of the things that I really loved about the narrative when Christopher was talking about Ones was he did such a good job of reminding us of the warmth of Ones because I think that a lot of times we're talking about some of the values and. And behaviors of Ones. It sounds very sterile, you know, like a surgeon or something. Like, it needs to be just right and da, da, da, da, da.

And we use the word rigid and stuff. And it can sort of leave you with this impression of a person who's, like, kind of cold and unfeeling.

And that's never been my experience with Ones, ever. They're very, very warm people. And I appreciated him saying, like, these are people who care deeply.

Their desire to reform comes from their care for a person or a project or a group. And I just don't want that to be forgotten about once. There's a lot of love there and.

Abram: 01:22:02

Tenderness because they're a person, they have the capacity to be warm. Right.

Creek: 01:22:08

And I think. I mean, Naylor said something along those lines of this.

He was recalling a panel of Ones, and it's like we're critiquing and we have this sort of intensity about improving something, doing something right, that sort of thing, in order to save you from suffering. Like, it comes. This sort of intensity comes from a deep sense of care, which I think is often lost when.

When you just stop at how you are perceiving feedback from anyone, really, but, like, from A1, especially.

Lindsey: 01:22:48

Yeah, my mom is A1.

And so I think it's especially interesting having A1 as a parent because they're sort of like they're doing double duty in this role in your life, because not only is it so much a part of their personality, but then they're in this role where they. It's their job to guide you.

It's their job to help you develop in ways that are appropriate and help you be accepted and help you be successful and all of these things.

And so a lot of my conversations with my mom as an adult are around how I have the greater capacity now to hear her feedback and want her feedback, whereas there were a lot of times when I was growing up where she just did not share because it created this friction between us and it caused me to resist.

And so I just personally have an appreciation for the tension within A one that is like, I care about you and I'm seeing things that you're blind to, and it hurts me to watch you suffer in ways that I potentially could prevent you from having to suffer. But I also know that you're not gonna listen because there's some part of you that needs to go through this the hard way.

You need to learn on your own.

So I guess I just wanna acknowledge that I think it would be hard to sit there and watch people that you care about suffer and also know that sometimes you have to just sit there and watch them.

And the other thing that I had an epiphany about was, I think I said this in a previous episode where the other schools are more, you know, body based or have body based practices or, you know, emphasis on somaticism and stuff. And ATA doesn't. And I had this epiphany.

And I think I've had this epiphany before, but, like, sometimes I have the same epiphany multiple times because I forget that I had it like the first few times. So it felt very fresh to me when I was re listening to this episode.

But in their language of striving to feel, essentially what they're naming is one of the ways that we're trying to regulate our nervous systems. You know what I mean?

Like, if I can achieve a feeling, feeling of perfection, then it gives my nervous system the hit that I need to calm down and relax. And so I do think in the striving to feel, there is inherently a lot of somatic stuff to work with there.

Creek: 01:25:30

Yeah, yeah, I've not thought about that. But yeah, it does feel very. Yeah. How do I feel? Okay. And what are the protocols that help me get back to that feeling state?

Hopefully in a more adaptive, mature and scofa way.

Abram: 01:25:46

Yeah, yeah. And for me, that's some. Again, like, this is how I feel. Like me. When things are.

Everybody has a right way or a way that they're hoping things go, but I think for once there's probably more of a major ideal for how things are expected to go.

And I'll just, I'll also say, like, I don't like it when I've heard certain teachers say more than any other type, this person does this because that's. That's not true. When you like, put a bunch, when you put 50 ones in a room, because they all do their oneness differently.

But I do, I do tend to think oneness in general has more of an idealistic perspective for how things should be done. Right. And so there is. When it's not. That's when stress for that kind of person comes in.

Lindsey: 01:26:43

One of the things that Gail had said was that ones really enjoy creating order out of chaos. That really stood out to me. It also made me think of like the preserving subtype, so. Or even, you know, I'm not a one.

I really feel a deep sense of satisfaction when there is order where there was previously chaos. And I am the catalyst for providing that order. That does something for Me. So. Yeah. Just an observation there.

I wonder what you think about creating order out of chaos as being. How does A1 do that in their own special way?

Abram: 01:27:31

Well, I would just wonder if. If. When. It's almost like a. When you're seeing through the lens of one, things that are out of place are chaotic.

So it's like other people might not perceive them as chaotic, you know, so.

Creek: 01:27:48

There'S a lower tolerance.

Abram: 01:27:50

Yes.

Creek: 01:27:50

Of chaos.

Abram: 01:27:51

Yeah. Or. Or there's a lower tolerance for things not being the way that I. And being held to the ideal that I have for how they should be.

Creek: 01:28:02

And I've heard. I've heard different ones say that it. It isn't. It's also not that everything has to be perfect and ordered.

It's like only the things that are important to me and the rest I will conveniently forget about or push to the side and pretend that's the way I maintain that sort of sense of perfection is by avoiding that some part of my life is pretty chaotic, actually.

Lindsey: 01:28:32

Yeah.

This makes me think of a conversation I had with my mom one time where we were trying to figure out her subtype and I'm kind of like stuck between navigating and preserving for my mom. But I was like, but mom, you always insisted that our house was clean. Like, we had to. There was. It needed to be like this.

And she was like, but do you remember, like the times of day that that was really important. I was like, I don't know what you mean. Say more. She was like, it was always right before your dad got home from work.

Because I knew that after a long day of work he would be able to relax. My dad is a preserving nine, full stop. And she was like, I knew he wouldn't be able to relax if the house wasn't in order because that's his nest.

Like, that's where he likes things to be ordered.

And so for my mom as a one, like, having the house clean all the time was not a high priority, but being able to love my dad in a way that she knew was important to him was a high priority.

Abram: 01:29:35

One thing from the institute that I know is highlighted around oneness, and not only oneness, but it is a feature of the school, is just talking about the inner critic. And you know, a lot of people, and I think it was even said in the human interview that ones tend to have the loudest inner critic.

I'm not sold on that personally, but I think it's really important to. As a sort of part of the structure, if you Will the psyche of a one that so much of their behavior is.

So much of that voice is about being in congruence with an inner ideal. Right. And what I know, what I've learned from my wife is that there's a time where this. I know this isn't the best. Even if this is the rule.

I know it's even better personally. And so ones don't only always ever adhere to the rules. There is a misconception there.

And if they see there's a better way to do it that's outside of the lines, they will. They will cross the lines. They will jump over the.

The barriers that are supposed to be, you know, because they think there still is a better way to do it. And I think that's really valuable to say.

But I think also, like, the more you overdo being right and responsible all the time, there's a part of you that wants to rebel. And I have heard from one of the founders of the institute, Russ Hudson, talk about.

He did a whole teaching on the inner critic, slash the inner rebel and how ones also have an inner rebel and how that can come out in different ways.

Creek: 01:31:20

But that could be. That's like that line to seven, I think.

Lindsey: 01:31:24

Yeah. And how you can do that line to seven adaptively or maladaptively.

Abram: 01:31:28

Yep.

Lindsey: 01:31:29

Like knowing I'm feeling the pressure building. I need to use this support to support myself versus I'm unaware that the pressure is building. And now I'm just gonna be like unhinged.

Abram: 01:31:41

Totally. I followed the rules. I've been the responsible one for so long. Screw it.

This is, you know, I'm going to break all the rules now and I'm just going to eat everything, whatever, however it is secretly. Just real briefly, I wanted to name the obligation piece for one and that. That line to four.

I think depending on, you know, which school of thought you're looking at. You know, ATA is. That's the support strategy. Right. So when stress is coming in and I'm not able to get. When things aren't, I'm.

When there's not order, I'm moving to this is supporting this behavior or this way of thinking. And now I'm the only one. And this is, you know, or. Or it's your stress, your. Your stress point. Right.

It hasn't worked to stay in control or to that things are out of alignment, you know. And so now I'm feeling stressed and now I'm moving to four.

Creek: 01:32:41

And as we're talking, it's making me think of again more like Just some mistypings of. Of how some of that could be perceived as sickness, of going to follow the rules. Going to follow rules.

And all of a sudden, like, these rules don't make sense and burn it all to the ground and like, just. Just go crazy.

Abram: 01:33:02

How do you see this distinguished being able to tell the difference?

Creek: 01:33:08

I. I think it comes from. Well, depending on the person. It's an unsatisfactory answer, but it's just like. It's a vibe.

It's a vibe difference where there's. I don't know. My experience with some six is like, there's a more aggressive force than. Of overcoming the rules and the authority.

I see six is kind of maybe a little bit more fear around. This has to go. But I'm a little scared of letting go of the familiar.

Lindsey: 01:33:48

Well, and I'm also. Yeah. And I'm wondering if there's a connection there. Like for sixes around institutions, whereas for ones there might be more of an individualistic.

What am I trying to say here?

Creek: 01:34:10

Like, an internal sense of this is what is right versus an external sense of rightness is out there or authority is out there.

Abram: 01:34:19

Yeah. There's a projection of authority for sixes around. On my own, it's hard to trust myself to know if. If. But.

But the longer you kind of give your authority away, I think the more actually untrustworthy that thing becomes for a six. And I think that can be a reason to sort of swing for sixes, whereas for the one.

I think it's just I'm so worn out by doing the right thing all the time. It's just a tiredness of obligation, I think.

Lindsey: 01:34:55

Yeah. And I see a lot of sixes who will decide based on.

I've done a lot of research about what other people are thinking and feeling, and I'm weighing the pros and the cons against what I think and what I feel. And so there's a collaboration between what I'm sensing inside of me, but checking it outside of me versus I don't see that as much with ones.

It's more of an inner dialogue. And I've just decided, kind of like Nikki was saying, like, I don't really care if you present me with alternative research.

Like, I've already decided what is best for me, and that's not something I'm open to anymore.

Creek: 01:35:33

Also, just when you get down to it, it's like, what?

These rules are here to keep me safe versus these rules are here to make me good or make others good or there's still A level of safety, I think, depending on the scenario, the person, the contacts, that sort of thing. But at the core, that motivation is safety versus some level of goodness or right and wrong morality.

Abram: 01:35:59

Yeah. And when the authority changes for Sixes, the responsibility maybe can change.

Whereas if your responsibility isn't tied to authority or being safe with another person, it doesn't change the responsibility, but it's just, does it make sense? So the rules or adhering to what should be done still is there. I'm just tired of doing it.

Lindsey: 01:36:27

One thing I wanted to say about Mickey's interview really made me realize how important it is to read multiple authors, because she was talking about how when she was first diagnosed. When she was first diagnosed as an eight and she only read the eights, you know, and she didn't.

And even when she did read the description of the ones, it was like, that doesn't resonate with me. And then she said she read Rohr's description of A1 and it was just like, bing. And so I do think that it's really important.

And one of the reasons we have so many voices this season is because hearing. Just because one word or one description doesn't resonate with you doesn't mean you are not that type. It's just that person's lens on that type.

And I was on another podcast earlier today and I was talking about my biases about certain types and how I feel like because I have a bias around those types, I am not explaining them as well as I want to. And so my own work as a teacher is to be able to find language that feels good for that type.

When I'm like, yes, you are representing me well, because my initial language is biased. And so if I'm using biased language, you're not going to feel represented and you're going to reject that as a possible type view.

Creek: 01:38:08

So every episode, Seth has sourced a quote for the type we're talking about. What do you got?

Abram: 01:38:16

This is from David Benner. He said perfection is not a static state, but a dynamic unfolding.

It is not about being flawless, but being whole, allowing the light of integrity to shine through our cracks.

Now, I know there's initial reaction to a word in there, but I think it still speaks to something about oneness in addressing more of a healthier take on how one can try and experience perfection as more of a process than a completed state. Right. Which is the word whole. Whole is a lifelong process, something you are always reaching for but never quite fully there.

Creek: 01:39:11

I think that the word I really like in there is the integrity piece. Because integrity is a thing that is adaptive regardless of the internal or external state of chaos or order.

It's like, how am I being integris here to myself and to others, to my values, that sort of thing. That to me is a really great word to hold on to for all of us, but especially for ones of being right.

The good, the bad, the perfect, the imperfect, all of that are states that can be affected but oftentimes can't be.

And leaning into do I feel like I'm being a person of integrity right now feels like a much more adaptive, skillful, flexible thing to lean into instead of relying on definitional perfection for sure.

Abram: 01:40:14

And I think as well expanding that definition because I think a lot of times people, and even just that there's an assumption of oneness, that integrity is about doing the right thing all the time and integrity. There's been a. Like, what's the. What am I trying to say?

There's been like a misunderstanding that it's primarily about moral integrity, whereas where the word comes from is what you're alluding to. Creek. It's about the whole, which means including making mistakes. That's the whole of life where I'm not always right. I don't always get it right. I.

I get it wrong sometimes and I make mistakes. And to show up that way, allow those parts of me to be seen too. That's what it means to have integrity.

Creek: 01:41:00

I was thinking of Neil Degrasse Tyson said something along the lines of who I think is a seven actually. But he said, I don't ever like to be wrong, but I am always excited to be corrective.

And I think that's a version of that where you're always going to be wrong. I think narratives talked about allowing versus acceptance. And it's like, yeah, I'm going to allow what is to be what is.

And I'm going to live in integrity according to my values and do what I can with what I have in order to affect the world around me in a way that seems authentic to me. And that just gives so much more breathing room than a rigid straitjacket of how things are, how they have to be.

Abram: 01:41:58

Totally. Yeah. If being hard on yourself worked, it would have worked by now. As it's been said. I think that's a good thing for once to hear.

Even though that's like, well, the thing that I'll say this, that one tend to hear in that is, oh, should I just give up? So everything's the chaos because it's my response.

Creek: 01:42:18

Yeah, well, and that's where we. Yeah, the expansion of the definition. We always jump to whatever our wounding is, whatever our type is.

We jump to the opposite of that as, wait, so I can't be unique? So I just have to be boring and mundane? No, that's not what I'm saying. I'm talking to myself right now.

Abram: 01:42:42

It's an immediate pendulum, someone, well, if I stop well, then the worst is going to happen.

Lindsey: 01:42:47

It's reminiscent to me when we talk about twos and how there's an internal thought process that if I'm not the one to help this person, then it won't happen and they will be worse off for it. And taking your hands off of it and realizing that there are times when you don't help and everything works out just fine.

You know, I wonder if there's a little bit of a connection there for Ones too, in exploring what it feels like when I take my hands off of this and I don't do it and everything works out just fine or not fine at all. And I was right all along and we're all still okay, you know, for sure.

Abram: 01:43:39

Yeah. One of my wife's mantras, and she's in the other room so she might hear me. Hopefully I get this correct.

She says, especially in seasons where there's just too much to do. Her mantra is I've decided not to care about that.

Creek: 01:43:58

That feels like I just got a thumbs up. That feels like our practical takeaway there. We'll take Sarah's mantra and make it the mantra for this episode. I decided to not care about that.

That feels like a great practical takeaway for everyone, but especially for Ones.

Abram: 01:44:20

Yeah, it really is. As cliche as it sounds. Trusting the process because perfection is not immediate. It's a process of improving.

Creek: 01:44:30

Anyways, thanks folks. For Ones, we hope you feel honored and seen and that those that are not Ones learned a little something. Obviously. Plenty.

Plenty more to talk about, to learn, to nuance, all of that. So that's why we have show notes. Make sure to check the show notes for different ways to engage this content. Learn more.

And of course you also have our membership portal that you can engage with us. Ask questions. We have access to a bunch of different really brilliant people that have been doing this work for a really long time. So we'd be doing.

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Lindsey: 01:46:17

You know, quote, I'm using finger quotes. Quote unquote, Type a quote unquote. Like obsessive needing things. Ah, there's confetti falling down.

Creek: 01:46:35

Emotions are like sneezing. That's all.

Lindsey: 01:46:40

Okay, bye. One of the jingles will play. Is that what is gonna happen there?

Creek: 01:46:50

Yes. Bye. How did we ever think you were too for real?

Abram: 01:47:05

It is. I'm sure we're like reading into it now at this point, but it is.

Lindsey: 01:47:11

It'S just all confirmation.