Episode 6
Lindsey's Not A Two
Lee Fields joins as Lindsey discusses the realization that she was mistyped as a Type Two. This conversation highlights that identifying an Enneagram type is a lot harder than people think, so mistyping can happen. Initially thinking she was a Type Two, Lindsey shares why she thought she fit into this type and how learning that she's in fact a different type has helped her grow as a person.
Lee Fields - Enneagrammatic
Awareness to Action
Enneagram on Demand - Certification Program
Mario Sikora:
IG: @mariosikora
TikTok: @mariosikora
Web: mariosikora.com
Substack: mariosikora.substack.com
Maria Jose Munita:
IG: @mjmunita
Web: mjmunita.com
Podcasts:
The Narrative Tradition
Terry Saracino:
Web: https://www.narrativeenneagram.org/team/terry-saracino/
Christopher Copeland:
Narrative Podcasts:
The Enneagram Institute
Gayle Scott:
Email - gayle@enneagrammysteryschool.com
Michael Naylor:
Web - enneagrammaine.com
You Tube - Enneagram Maine Interviews
—
Fathoms | An Enneagram Podcast: Serious Growth for Unserious Humans
—
Help Fathoms, By Supporting Us Here: Fathoms Membership Community
Co-hosts: Seth Abram, Seth Creekmore, Lindsey Marks
Production/Editing: Liminal Podcasts
- Follow us on Instagram: @fathoms.enneagram
- Follow Abram: @integratedenneagram
- Follow Creek: @_creekmore
- Follow Lindsey: @lindseyfaithdm
This podcast uses the following third-party services for analysis:
Podcorn - https://podcorn.com/privacy
Transcript
Welcome to a bonus episode of Fathoms in Enneagram podcast.
Speaker A:Bet you did not expect this to come out on the Thursday in between three hours of other episodes.
Speaker A:So we are here with our wonderful friend Lee Fields.
Speaker A:Hello.
Speaker A:Who is joining us on this episode for multiple reasons, but for the people in the back who haven't heard of you, Lee, give us five words that describe you.
Speaker B:First of all, where have those people been?
Speaker B:Wake up.
Speaker B:You need to know.
Speaker C:Lee Fields, please listen to the entire Fathoms catalog.
Speaker C:We can't recommend past episodes enough.
Speaker C:Well, does count as one of the words?
Speaker C:Am I down to four?
Speaker C:All right, all right.
Speaker C:I'm going to give you five words that describe me today.
Speaker C:And one of them is persnickety.
Speaker C:So that's the crossover.
Speaker C:That's the crossover to the ATA podcast.
Speaker C:Persnickety.
Speaker C:Curious.
Speaker C:Grateful.
Speaker C:Perplexing.
Speaker C:And.
Speaker C:And so two ums.
Speaker C:Two ums.
Speaker C:It's a bookend situation.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker C:Worn out there.
Speaker C:You got two extra words.
Speaker C:20, 25 is not kidding.
Speaker C:I'm worn out.
Speaker A:So, as one of our most dedicated friends and listeners, where are you in the listening process of season five?
Speaker C:I feel trapped.
Speaker C:No, I am.
Speaker B:This episod.
Speaker B:This episode is a cry for help.
Speaker C:That's right.
Speaker C:I'm not listening to it right now.
Speaker C:As a person who was fortunate enough to see sort of season five evolve from planning to actuality, I will say that I feel like I've been in it for a long time.
Speaker B:Lee is our board of director.
Speaker D:That's good.
Speaker D:That's fine.
Speaker C:I feel like I've been in it for a long time, and it's exciting to see it animated, like, come to life and hear it not be theoretical.
Speaker C:And as with so many things, Enneagram, I feel like I could listen to it five times and hear something different every time.
Speaker C:Right.
Speaker C:But I've learned a lot in the history.
Speaker C:It's just because you're dissociating about 45.
Speaker C:I am building capacity and practicing intentional discomfort.
Speaker C:No, I'm kidding.
Speaker C:It's really good material, but it is.
Speaker C:I feel like it's a college class.
Speaker C:Like it's a seminar.
Speaker C:You know?
Speaker A:You're pulling a politics right now and not answering the question.
Speaker C:I'm not pulling a politics.
Speaker B:Is it a college seminar with jingles?
Speaker A:Yeah, college seminar with jingles.
Speaker C:I don't.
Speaker C:I don't get the reference, but I.
Speaker B:Was not to the eight episode yet.
Speaker C:No, I'm not telling us.
Speaker D:That answers it.
Speaker D:Okay.
Speaker C:Okay.
Speaker C:Pretty sneaky, sis.
Speaker A:Last time I heard, you're, like, halfway through History.
Speaker C:I'm halfway through history.
Speaker C:That's right.
Speaker D:Aren't we all though?
Speaker C:Right?
Speaker C:Well, we're smack dab in the middle of history right now, sir.
Speaker A:Every day is halfway through history.
Speaker D:I think I'm persnickety, actually.
Speaker C:Right.
Speaker A:Are you?
Speaker C:We like it.
Speaker B:We've been.
Speaker B:After all that protein.
Speaker C:Even after, perhaps especially.
Speaker A:I was so proud of myself.
Speaker A:I got like 50 grams of protein at breakfast this morning.
Speaker A:Whoa.
Speaker B:Dear God.
Speaker C:Why are you staying?
Speaker C:So what did you eat?
Speaker B:Did you eat 42 eggs?
Speaker C:Have you seen the price of eggs?
Speaker C:You can't do that.
Speaker A:Oh, yeah, I had some.
Speaker A:I had like two scoops of protein on top of some oatmeal that had like 30 grams of protein in it.
Speaker A:On top of eggs.
Speaker D:And you mixed all that together, you.
Speaker B:Put all this on top in a.
Speaker A:Blender and just chug.
Speaker C:Where's the 81?
Speaker B:On top of it.
Speaker A:Oh, well.
Speaker B:You can't do that without warning her.
Speaker B:You have to tell her when you're going to gag.
Speaker D:They say.
Speaker D:I read recently that you need to intake each meal at least 30 grams of protein in order to have emotional regulation capacity.
Speaker B:What?
Speaker D:Yeah, and it seems like you've maybe consumed too much, so you're back to dysregulated.
Speaker B:Overshot.
Speaker C:It just blow past.
Speaker A:Like.
Speaker A:Show me the white paper.
Speaker A:You mean just being more of a man?
Speaker C:Okay, side tune chat.
Speaker B:Did I mention that the eggs were.
Speaker D:Raw and people stopped listening to fathoms here on out?
Speaker D:So there's four.
Speaker C:Ladies and gentlemen, let's bring it back.
Speaker A:Let's bring it back to our original purpose.
Speaker A:We are in the middle of the season.
Speaker A:We're really excited with finish up fishing.
Speaker D:Fishing.
Speaker A:Now we're fishing out the types as we finish out the type episodes and yeah, so there's.
Speaker A:We got.
Speaker A:We got some great stuff in store.
Speaker A:Just a reminder, if you're wanting more content, more you have questions.
Speaker A:You have, you know, just want to process things about our episode.
Speaker A:Things you agree with, things you disagree with.
Speaker A:Please.
Speaker A:All of the above is welcomed.
Speaker A:You can, you know, just contact us through Instagram or you can hop through our membership portal and we got private Facebook group, we got a private Marco Polo group, we got a bunch of.
Speaker A:We have private podcast feed.
Speaker A:All good things.
Speaker A:So links in the show notes.
Speaker A:But why are we doing this?
Speaker A:You may ask.
Speaker A:Lindsay, do you want to.
Speaker A:I don't know how to get us in here into this.
Speaker D:Once upon a time.
Speaker C:Have you ever had a friend.
Speaker B:Have you ever had a friend that just was completely lost in an illusion and you Needed to go and get them out of it.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:So this is going to release before the two episode for a specific reason.
Speaker A:Lindsay, would you like to share with us that reason?
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:So my wonder, my wonderful friends here with their Enia hammers came blasting into my life one day and said, with consent.
Speaker B:With consent?
Speaker B:Yes, with Enia consent.
Speaker B:And they said.
Speaker B:So we have been kind of sitting on this for a while, and we don't think you're a two.
Speaker B:I just have to say, though, that the way that this came about was like Abram taking seven decades to get around to the point.
Speaker B:And I was like, am I kicked off the podcast?
Speaker B:Like, what is this?
Speaker B:What do you need to tell me?
Speaker B:Just tell me.
Speaker D:I remember being.
Speaker D:Yeah, I remember being stuck in preface mode.
Speaker D:I was like.
Speaker D:And the thing that was.
Speaker D:The thing that we were thinking about was the thing that was maybe I.
Speaker D:Oh, no.
Speaker A:We thought you could maybe benefit from.
Speaker A:Not that you're anything less, but if you could maybe try to see that perhaps we.
Speaker A:I could keep going.
Speaker B:But I need to paint the picture, though, because you also had the.
Speaker B:Both of you, the two of you had the biggest, goofiest grins on your face.
Speaker C:Oh.
Speaker B:And you were just, like, watching me.
Speaker A:Yeah, I know.
Speaker B:For.
Speaker A:We did not record it.
Speaker B:I can't.
Speaker B:But I learned later that Lee was very much a part of this process and this decision to not make me feel bombarded with what would feel like an intervention of sorts.
Speaker C:And there's a data point around that one for later, too.
Speaker B:Okay.
Speaker B:Okay, we'll get to all the data points.
Speaker B:Or some of them.
Speaker C:Yeah, some of them.
Speaker B:There's probably too many to get to today, but.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:So, yes, my friends just very kindly said we.
Speaker B:I.
Speaker B:I specifically remember the words, something along the lines of we care about you and we want you to have every tool at your disposal.
Speaker B:And that felt very kind.
Speaker A:Nice.
Speaker D:And was.
Speaker D:Was every tool option exciting to you?
Speaker D:At your disposal?
Speaker B:It was very intriguing.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:And exciting.
Speaker B:Wasn't going to use that word.
Speaker C:Yeah, you were.
Speaker C:Yeah, you were.
Speaker A:Oh, man.
Speaker C:New tools are fun.
Speaker C:Back to school.
Speaker C:Tools.
Speaker B:New.
Speaker B:Right, Exactly.
Speaker B:New tools.
Speaker B:New pencils, new erasers.
Speaker B:Lisa.
Speaker B:Frank.
Speaker B:Notebook.
Speaker C:There you go.
Speaker A:So, as our audience is picking their jaws off the ground, Lindsay, tell us a little bit about kind of your.
Speaker A:I know we've had some of your Enneagram story before, but can you start with just how you.
Speaker A:The original selection of two and what were those reasons.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker C:Can I ask something?
Speaker B:Yes.
Speaker B:I did get new earrings for today.
Speaker B:For this episode.
Speaker C:Specifically, what I was going to Say is include if you would in your story if you took a diagnostic test or not.
Speaker B:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker B:So I did take a test, an online test that gave me the result of 2.
Speaker B:And as I began to read about what an enneagram 2 was, it really did explain a lot of my day in, day out behaviors and just the way that I had known myself in that season of life, which I think is a really important point to make that we can keep coming back to.
Speaker B:This was the season of life that I was in.
Speaker B:It included being newer in my marriage journey, mother of very young children, three children under the age of four, which is all consuming.
Speaker B:So who in that situation really even has time to consider their own needs?
Speaker B:Right?
Speaker B:So that piece of the puzzle really made a lot of sense to me.
Speaker B:Like, yeah, I don't really take care of myself.
Speaker B:I don't really do things for myself.
Speaker B:Well, yeah, no, duh.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker B:And so, yeah, I think it just, it did make sense at the time also the fact that I tend to be connected to myself emotionally in a way that I really enjoy.
Speaker B:You know, I was learning a lot about the centers of intelligence at the time and that heart center concept spoke to me.
Speaker B:I am fascinated by my own emotions and other people's emotions.
Speaker B:And it's a part of my life that exploring that really does actually bring me a lot of joy and helps me feel like I'm just learning to move through life more adaptively when I pay attention to that part of myself.
Speaker B:So I kind of interpreted that as like, oh, I'm a heart centered person because I care about people who like to think and talk about emotions.
Speaker B:And I want to hear about your.
Speaker A:Emotions as you lived with that two ness.
Speaker A:How did that help your growth as a person?
Speaker B:Yeah, well, at the time I was really steeped in the work of harmony triads and so I was really working a lot with the 258 triad.
Speaker B:And it was an important season of life for me to learn to value, or I should say practice valuing my own intelligence.
Speaker B:So thinking about five helped lift to the surface ways that I dismissed myself a lot, deferred to other people and their intelligence, and discredited my own wisdom, my own training, my own knowledge.
Speaker B:So it was a season of really kind of like.
Speaker B:And I'm still in the process of this, to be perfectly honest.
Speaker B:I've not like perfected this part, but digging my heels in and deciding, like, I do believe that I'm a smart person and I'm going to stop thinking of myself as not a smart person.
Speaker B:And bring my own intellect to the table.
Speaker B:And.
Speaker B:And then contemplating what it looked like to explore that 8 space of speaking up for myself, vocalizing my opinions, and letting myself be free of what others thought of me was a huge struggle for me.
Speaker B:Which also reinforced my understanding of two was needing other people to tell you who you are instead of having a strong self of who you are caring a lot about how other people perceive you.
Speaker B:You know, that image triad, two threes and fours.
Speaker B:How it gets explained is I just really, really care about other people's perceptions of me.
Speaker B:And so considering and contemplating aidishness just gave me some handles around.
Speaker B:Like, how do I want to experience that kind of power in my own life?
Speaker B:To be able to say I'm going to choose to not care so much about what this person or this group thinks of me.
Speaker B:Hashtag navigating.
Speaker C:I was just thinking about.
Speaker C:Not so much thinking about the Enneagram type strategy teaching, but like the fact that it's a model and how confirmation bias can come in.
Speaker C:Right.
Speaker C:Like we're using this model of the Enneagram to understand ourselves better.
Speaker C:And then we start building up what we think we know based on what we've learned.
Speaker C:And it reinforces our initial sort of anchored thought.
Speaker C:Right.
Speaker C:And that it's hardly a spoiler to say in this episode now that Lindsay's been on a journey of considering that she might not actually be a two.
Speaker C:Right.
Speaker C:But she did a lot of work learning how to be self aware and identifying parts of herself that she wanted to build skills for and practice with.
Speaker C:That was really constructive.
Speaker C:Like, and this is going to be sort of an Enneagram blasphemy thing to say.
Speaker C:But in this regard, it kind of doesn't matter what your type is.
Speaker C:If you're looking at yourself and working with your reality, that's just the model that's helping you do that.
Speaker C:It's not who you are.
Speaker C:Right.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker D:I heard it said, just to add briefly to that, I heard it said recently that everything is neutral until perspective is applied.
Speaker C:Mm.
Speaker C:Damn.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker D:It's at least, I think a helpful addition here to rein some of that in for me.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:And another way of saying it is it's all just you until you choose to label it blank number.
Speaker C:Right.
Speaker D:Yeah.
Speaker D:People could grow before they knew the Enneagram.
Speaker D:Right.
Speaker D:Just because you have a new way to label certain behaviors doesn't mean.
Speaker D:Yeah, it's just a new way, a different way.
Speaker C:Then the fact is, when you're doing the work, if you're using the Enneagram.
Speaker C:You could use it for 30 years, and if your perspective never shifts, then you're kind of not doing it.
Speaker C:Right.
Speaker C:Right.
Speaker C:So it's going to change.
Speaker C:You're going to change, reality's gonna change, your perspective's gonna change, and you'll grow or not.
Speaker C:Right.
Speaker A:So the other three.
Speaker A:I'm curious, what was the initial moment of, like, record scratch.
Speaker A:Wait a second.
Speaker B:Oh, yeah, I wanna hear these.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:What was it?
Speaker A:First.
Speaker A:First of all, let's.
Speaker A:Can we all recall the first time we met Lindsay in person and then share the first record scratch of that?
Speaker A:2 Ness doesn't.
Speaker D:No.
Speaker D:I remember the first time I met Lindsay in person.
Speaker D:And what's interesting is I was interpreting Lindsay's behavior from the lens I already had of her and then shifting it to the lens that we're talking about today.
Speaker D:It's like, oh, well, now I see it in that way, you know, so this is really like the lens in which you hold is giving you.
Speaker D:It's.
Speaker D:You don't see things the way they are, that you see things the way you are.
Speaker D:This is like the best example of that.
Speaker D:But I remember meeting Lindsay at the airport, and I think the first thing you said to me was something about how Marco Polo covers up my freckles.
Speaker B:We have actually a video of the first time that we met, because you.
Speaker C:Can go in the show notes.
Speaker B:Creek is so sneaky about pulling his phone out for really important moments that everyone's gonna want to have later.
Speaker B:And he pulled his phone out and got a video of it.
Speaker A:Yes, well.
Speaker D:And in that moment, it was.
Speaker D:I was interpreting it as, oh, she's such a connector.
Speaker D:And there was a lot of excited connecting happening, you know, in this first.
Speaker D:It was.
Speaker D:It was.
Speaker D:I remember it even led up to.
Speaker D:It was ramping up to the moment of when we were going to officially meet in person.
Speaker D:There was.
Speaker D:I wasn't carrying any of that.
Speaker D:I wasn't initiating.
Speaker D:That was all.
Speaker B:You weren't caring.
Speaker D:I should just mean Lindsay was the one that initiated that.
Speaker D:Like that.
Speaker D:That vibe, that feeling, that thing that was leading up to the first.
Speaker D:I would have just gone and, oh, here's Lindsay.
Speaker D:I'm excited to meet her right now.
Speaker D:It's ramping up to this moment.
Speaker D:So it was very easy to.
Speaker D:I was already holding this idea of two ness in my mind, so it was pretty easy to interpret it as Lindsay's excited to meet me, to connect with me, because this is a relationship.
Speaker B:I was really surprised that you had freckles.
Speaker C:You were delighted and surprised I was.
Speaker B:So excited about them.
Speaker B:Oh, man, your freckles are fun.
Speaker A:Oh, man.
Speaker A:If you don't know what type we're referring to at this point, go to the beginning of the season and start from there again.
Speaker A:Lee, what about you?
Speaker C:Well, I met Lindsay in person in San Francisco for the IEA Global Conference at the same time.
Speaker C:Not at the same exact time, but the same week.
Speaker C:And Lindsay had had a lot of, I would say, preamble excitement about being there.
Speaker C:We didn't have, like, a countdown clock, but it felt like there was a countdown clock.
Speaker C:And I'm gonna get to hug you, and I'm gonna be right there.
Speaker D:That's what I was speaking to you.
Speaker D:Yeah, that's it.
Speaker C:And it was like.
Speaker C:And it's a vibe thing.
Speaker C:I'm gonna have to go to vibes.
Speaker C:I can't.
Speaker C:I can't.
Speaker C:Not.
Speaker C:Right.
Speaker C:But just the energetic feeling was one of excitement and animation and possibility and joy.
Speaker C:Right.
Speaker C:And what I wasn't getting was expectation.
Speaker C:There was connection without expectation with Lindsay.
Speaker A:What was the first time you remembered digitally meeting Lindsay?
Speaker C:Oh, that was a long time earlier, actually, in an awareness to action certification class.
Speaker C:We were in the same cohort and a small group together.
Speaker C:So I'd spent a good bit of time with her before meeting her in person.
Speaker C:But I took her at face value for her typing.
Speaker C:Like, I was like, okay, she's two.
Speaker C:She's two.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:There's no reason to question it.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker C:Right.
Speaker A:I mean, first time I met Lindsay in person was actually several.
Speaker A:Several years ago.
Speaker A:She was doing music at a church.
Speaker A:We only, like, briefly met then, but again.
Speaker A:And then we did an event together, Enneagram and music thing.
Speaker A:I didn't.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:There's no reason to doubt things.
Speaker A:But I think for me, he was in San Francisco as well at the conference, at the Enneagram conference, that there was a moment I remember all of a sudden things clicking into place of something about Lindsay doesn't feel too.
Speaker A:There's something extra there and extra.
Speaker A:And we talk about all the time of like, you know, maybe this is just a version of two I've not seen before.
Speaker A:And I quickly just kind of dismissed it, but just kind of kept my eye on it.
Speaker A:And so I don't know.
Speaker A:That was.
Speaker A:I guess, at this point, Lindsay, just.
Speaker A:Just say it already.
Speaker B:I was.
Speaker C:It's pretty exciting.
Speaker A:The best type, 7.
Speaker A:7.
Speaker C:It's got a 2 in it.
Speaker B:You use both of your hands.
Speaker C:I would pull something out creek that you said.
Speaker C:They seemed that there was something extra for two.
Speaker C:Right.
Speaker C:And the model that we all have learned together uses the instinctual biases and the type strategies together.
Speaker C:Right?
Speaker C:So one of the early theories was, well, maybe she's just not navigating.
Speaker C:Right.
Speaker C:Maybe that's the piece that's sort of the wonky wheel to the hypothesis.
Speaker A:Because navigators are normally.
Speaker C:Oh, it's my blind spot.
Speaker C:I have no idea.
Speaker C:No, I'm kidding.
Speaker C:What I've read is.
Speaker C:No, what I'm saying is that connection, that inclusion of the group, the sort of reading the room, being attuned to.
Speaker C:Being kind of attuned to everyone, right.
Speaker C:Paying attention to a broad spectrum of people.
Speaker A:I think there tends.
Speaker A:For navigators, there tends to be.
Speaker A:I think there was like.
Speaker A:I guess there was a possibility of there being transmitting, like some sort of transmitting to that.
Speaker A:That was the.
Speaker A:The extra that was kind of over the top.
Speaker A:Go get em.
Speaker A:Doesn't stop.
Speaker A:So.
Speaker A:But.
Speaker A:But I still saw her connecting.
Speaker A:But then I just labeled that as two of involving people being great at listening and that sort of thing.
Speaker A:So there, there was just like something is off here.
Speaker A:And I think I mentioned it to Mario and Maria Jose while we were there.
Speaker A:And they're like, you know, there's some 2 Ness there.
Speaker A:I think they were still in the sort of two camp.
Speaker A:So I just kind of.
Speaker A:All right, well, whatever.
Speaker B:Well, and we've had conversations before.
Speaker B:I was like, if you guys didn't think I was a two, you'd tell me, right?
Speaker B:Like, you promise?
Speaker B:Promise?
Speaker C:And then I did.
Speaker B:And you were like, oh, no.
Speaker D:Yeah.
Speaker B:And then you did, but you forgot.
Speaker C:I missed it.
Speaker D:And I forgot.
Speaker C:Which is one of my favorite data points of the entire thing.
Speaker A:Story time.
Speaker C:Yeah, here's some lore you didn't ask for.
Speaker C:Registered trademark Lindsay Marks.
Speaker B:Yes, that's my trademark.
Speaker C:The Lindsay.
Speaker C:Why don't you tell the lore?
Speaker C:Or do you want me to tell the Lord?
Speaker B:You tell the lore.
Speaker C:Want to do rock, paper, scissors all the time here?
Speaker A:Just somebody talk.
Speaker C:Poor Beleaguered Creek.
Speaker A:I gotta edit this.
Speaker B:Just give him words.
Speaker C:More words.
Speaker C:Less.
Speaker C:Not words.
Speaker C:Okay, so I don't remember exactly when, but sometime digitally or on a phone call, I floated the hypothesis.
Speaker C:There was some stuff that were anomalies for me.
Speaker C:Right.
Speaker C:Like that I wasn't seeing some do stuff.
Speaker C:And part of how my brain works around the Enneagram model when typing people who have asked to be typed, which this again was not the case.
Speaker C:Right.
Speaker C:Is to sort of backwards check my work with the connecting points on the Enneagram.
Speaker C:Right.
Speaker C:And say.
Speaker C:Okay, so for two, where's four, where's eight?
Speaker C:Right.
Speaker C:How's this showing up?
Speaker C:And I just wasn't seeing that.
Speaker C:Right.
Speaker C:And so, like, there's just some not to stuff that I don't see.
Speaker C:You know, I'm not seeing some stuff that I.
Speaker C:I find sort of foundational for Two.
Speaker C:Right.
Speaker C:And one of the things has to do with expectations.
Speaker C:Like, I've had dozens of dozens and dozens of conversations with Lindsay at this point, synchronously, asynchronously.
Speaker C:Now, in person, I wish more in person, but that's a separate thing.
Speaker C:But her level of expectation, or another experience that I have in relationship with Twos is there's a demandingness for me to share things about myself.
Speaker C:Right.
Speaker C:And I've never gotten that from Lindsay.
Speaker C:I've been invited to share things about myself.
Speaker C:She's enthusiastic about hearing things about me and keeping up with me.
Speaker C:Right.
Speaker C:But never.
Speaker C:She also shares herself.
Speaker C:Right.
Speaker C:And that was very different.
Speaker C:And I think that this is where.
Speaker C:So I'd had this conversation with her.
Speaker C:I'll stick with the lore, but I want to drop a pin in saying that bad enneagram teaching is confusing for everybody.
Speaker C:Right.
Speaker C:And stereotypes of both seven and two muddied the waters for this, I think.
Speaker C:Right?
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker C:All right, so that's future bit of conversation.
Speaker C:But right now, I had this conversation with Lindsay.
Speaker C:I left thinking, okay, well, I've told her my theory, right?
Speaker C:It's hers to do with if she wants to.
Speaker C:Then months later, we have the, like, sideline pseudo intervention where you guys sit down and talk to her, and she was terrified that you were delivering a, like, death sentence to her podcasting career or something bad like that.
Speaker C:And then I had agreed that I wouldn't be there because we didn't want to gang up on her or make her feel like.
Speaker C:What is that word?
Speaker C:Intervened.
Speaker C:Right?
Speaker C:Intervention.
Speaker C:But then when you said, well, you know how Lee feels about it.
Speaker C:And she's like, what?
Speaker C:And I'm like, so then she gets off the phone with you, and Lee's me and Marco Polo.
Speaker C:And we call, and she's like, what do you mean?
Speaker C:I know how you feel about it.
Speaker C:I'm like, I told you.
Speaker C:She's like, when?
Speaker C:I'm like, oh, it totally happened.
Speaker C:Like, I left that conversation thinking, well, I have floated this.
Speaker C:If it lands, it lands.
Speaker C:And it was just a miss, right?
Speaker B:You told me that.
Speaker B:I said, I've thought about it before, but I'm just not in a place to have an identity crisis.
Speaker C:I'm not in a place to have an identity Crisis right now.
Speaker C:That's right.
Speaker C:Okay.
Speaker C:And you told me.
Speaker C:Then I took a test online, and it said I could be a two or a seven or a something else.
Speaker C:And, like, there were three diapers.
Speaker C:Yes.
Speaker B:I think it was two.
Speaker C:Seventy.
Speaker C:What?
Speaker C:A lot of random over here.
Speaker C:Just so much positivity.
Speaker C:But the.
Speaker C:But, yeah, I'm not in the mood to have an identity crisis right now.
Speaker C:I've considered it.
Speaker C:Focus.
Speaker C:I was like, okay.
Speaker C:Right.
Speaker C:But then that didn't stick.
Speaker C:Right.
Speaker C:It was just like, I could have said, do you want to go for boba or iced coffee this afternoon?
Speaker C:Just giving bougie snack ideas.
Speaker C:Because Friday.
Speaker C:But anyway, so that was part of the story.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:Abram, do you remember how our conversation came up?
Speaker D:Yeah, we were in.
Speaker D:We were at my house, in my library space.
Speaker D:I don't remember exactly how it came.
Speaker D:I think you were initiating something, and we just kind of started going back and forth about.
Speaker D:You said something about Lindsay being Maybe not a 2, and we were exploring the other numbers, and then 7 came, and we're like, oh, that's interesting.
Speaker D:And then you said something, and I was like, oh, that's.
Speaker D:Yeah.
Speaker D:Huh.
Speaker D:And I said.
Speaker D:And then I.
Speaker D:Then I think I came up with something that felt 70.
Speaker D:And then you did.
Speaker D:And we were like, oh, my gosh.
Speaker D:This is everywhere.
Speaker D:Oh, my word.
Speaker D:It's all we see now.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker D:Where did you go?
Speaker C:Why?
Speaker D:Did we ever think that?
Speaker D:Yeah, it just unraveled.
Speaker D:It really did.
Speaker D:And then we were like, wow.
Speaker D:Well, we're about to start another podcast season.
Speaker D:Do you think we should tell her before say something about it?
Speaker D:I don't know.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker D:Yeah.
Speaker D:It was a bit of a debacle.
Speaker A:Debacle.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker B:And how did you guys think that I would respond when you told me all of these thoughts?
Speaker A:Well, I mean.
Speaker A:And this is.
Speaker A:I mean, this kind of is, in some ways a transition into.
Speaker A:Our next sort of thing we're gonna.
Speaker B:Talk about is Queen of Transitions.
Speaker A:Like, it's.
Speaker A:It's always a really difficult thing to kind of bring that up with anyone.
Speaker A:And.
Speaker A:And, like, you know, we've been in relationship long enough.
Speaker A:Like, we didn't think you were going to get mad at us or anything, but it is a weird sort of.
Speaker A:It can feel initially like an attack on someone's identity.
Speaker A:Like, I've attached so much of my story and explained so much of my story in this genre of literature, and you're telling me that I'm now this genre.
Speaker A:Like, I have to go back and retell all these stories and So I don't.
Speaker A:We were just hoping.
Speaker A:I don't know.
Speaker A:I just don't think.
Speaker A:We weren't thinking you're going to fall apart necessarily.
Speaker A:But we also didn't want to overburden you with that much of an identity crisis.
Speaker A:That can happen sometimes, but you received it well, and we're interested and excited to see.
Speaker A:Literally, you're like, well, this will be interesting and fun.
Speaker C:Fun.
Speaker C:This will be fun.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker C:Could I add something to that?
Speaker C:As I remember it, and.
Speaker C:And as we've determined memory is faulty, but as I remember it, we had sort of two lanes of how we thought it might go.
Speaker C:One was more like concern, like, I hope this lands well.
Speaker C:We have this one data point that she said she doesn't want.
Speaker C:Not up for an identity crisis.
Speaker C:And we're basically demanding an identity crisis.
Speaker C:Right.
Speaker C:If we bring it up.
Speaker C:And that was sort of the serious concerns that were voiced.
Speaker C:But then we also had this levity in the conversation of, she's probably gonna be really excited about it.
Speaker C:Like, there may be some initial.
Speaker C:Oh, my gosh.
Speaker C:What?
Speaker C:But then I think she'll handle it really well.
Speaker C:Right.
Speaker C:Because we weren't saying you're not a two.
Speaker C:Right.
Speaker C:We were saying we see some stuff that makes us think that might not be what you are.
Speaker C:Right.
Speaker C:It's an inside job to figure that out anyway.
Speaker C:But we're your friends.
Speaker C:Who's going to reflect to you what they see?
Speaker C:I mean, sure, we have an agenda, but our agenda is positive things for you.
Speaker C:Right.
Speaker C:Not some other motivation.
Speaker C:So that's how I remember part of it anyway.
Speaker D:I had the sense that Lindsay would be fine.
Speaker D:She would receive the information.
Speaker D:It was more so I was worried about the timing.
Speaker D:Should we do this now?
Speaker D:Should we wait?
Speaker D:But if we wait too long, will then she be upset at us that we waited so long?
Speaker D:And.
Speaker D:Yeah, I think it was more about timing for me.
Speaker D:I had the sense that she'd be fine to receive it and hold it and check it.
Speaker D:Yeah.
Speaker D:That was all I was thinking.
Speaker B:I do appreciate that you guys waited as long as you did, because it, you know, I think that's what good scientists do.
Speaker B:They have a hypothesis, and they take plenty of time to kind of look at all the variables and really test it and try to falsify it.
Speaker B:And it just became harder to falsify the longer that you waited.
Speaker B:And so I just felt really cared for in the process.
Speaker B:I know that not everybody feels cared for when these things come up.
Speaker B:And so I just feel grateful for you guys and the way you handled it.
Speaker B:And.
Speaker B:And I do remember being fine with letting go of the 2 label.
Speaker B:Like, I am just going to tell myself that I'm very enlightened and, you know, not overly attached to my identity.
Speaker B:It could also be a data point for seven, but, yeah, top shelf.
Speaker C:Reframe right there.
Speaker B:There you go.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:I was just really ready to let go of what didn't feel like it fit.
Speaker D:I do remember as we were trying to figure out the time, all the different interaction we still were having, you know, for fathoms or for planning or anything, you know, like texts and hearing you speak.
Speaker D:Creek and I are behind the scenes, just, like, love it.
Speaker C:This is it.
Speaker D:That was it.
Speaker D:There's another one.
Speaker D:There's another one.
Speaker D:You know, we were just.
Speaker D:It was really hard to actually not.
Speaker D:Is this the moment that we bring it up?
Speaker D:Because here's a great example.
Speaker D:It was.
Speaker D:It was.
Speaker D:It was fun, actually, to.
Speaker D:To witness all the moments of this is really showing itself to be true, at least from.
Speaker D:From our perspective.
Speaker D:Yeah.
Speaker A:Was it at all like the data that we presented to you, Linz, or that made it easy for you to see quickly, or just the trust in us that we wouldn't bring you something that we hadn't thoroughly thought through?
Speaker B:Oh, yeah.
Speaker B:It was definitely a combination of both.
Speaker B:But I've been holding tension around components of the type 2 in me ever since I first started believing I was a type 2.
Speaker B:For example, this idea that twos are thinking repressed, you know, was something that was.
Speaker B:Was taught to me, and I don't experience myself that way.
Speaker B:And so then it was like when I.
Speaker B:When I would try to explore that question, well, why does it feel like I don't feel thinking repressed?
Speaker B:I feel like my brain is on fire all the time.
Speaker B:So what does that mean?
Speaker B:And it's like, oh, well, your productive thinking repressed, so you have trouble accessing productive thoughts.
Speaker B:And then I would think, but isn't that just a skill?
Speaker B:Like, isn't that, like, what does that have to do with being a type 2?
Speaker B:Isn't that just.
Speaker B:I can work on being more of a productive thinker and saying no to thoughts that aren't productive.
Speaker B:And I feel like I'm actually also pretty good at that too.
Speaker B:So stuff like that.
Speaker B:And also the.
Speaker B:The.
Speaker B:I do love connecting with people, but there are ways that other people's negative experiences with twos were sort of put on to me.
Speaker B:And then I didn't see myself in.
Speaker B:In those projections either.
Speaker B:Like, I.
Speaker B:But okay, I don't actually feel Like, I need from you the thing that you're telling me that I need from you.
Speaker B:And so, like, what's happening here?
Speaker B:And then I would have to find it inside myself, practice confirmation bias to find it in order to uphold the narrative that I was a 2.
Speaker B:So obviously this must be a thing that I struggle with, is placing these unfair demands on my relationships.
Speaker B:But I just didn't.
Speaker B:I do experience myself as giving people freedom to engage me as they feel comfortable.
Speaker B:And then there's the other piece of, like, twos needing others, sort of getting information from other people about who they are.
Speaker B:And I think that that was just a lie I believed about myself for too long.
Speaker B:I think that it was covered up by insecurity that I was experiencing because of other things completely unrelated to enneagram stuff.
Speaker B:And the truth that I feel like has always been true about me is that I do have a very strong inner sense of self, and I don't struggle to articulate to myself who I am, what I want, what I like, what I need.
Speaker B:Those aren't struggles that I encounter.
Speaker B:I mean, I'm susceptible to being influenced by other people just like everybody else is.
Speaker B:I am susceptible to wanting people to like me, just like a lot of types are.
Speaker B:And I think a lot of that, you know, points back to navigating in a lot of ways.
Speaker B:But, yeah, those were just a few examples of things that I just never.
Speaker B:I was like, I don't see myself in the literature for twos on these points.
Speaker B:Yeah, I made myself, but I didn't really truly see it.
Speaker D:I wonder if two things, you know, to what degree then is a person with primary tunis actually repressing needs?
Speaker D:If you thought you were.
Speaker D:And also then was there a moment where you realized, oh, maybe the tunis is actually navigating?
Speaker D:And that was a lot of the equating.
Speaker B:Yeah, I mean, I guess I just assumed I had kind of a one, two punch with two and navigating.
Speaker B:Like, there's a lot a strong desire to connect.
Speaker B:There's a strong finger on the pulse of the room, in the group, and need to situate myself within the group dynamics and all of that.
Speaker B:And I just thought it was two sides of the same coin, you know?
Speaker B:But even within those spaces, even in the spaces that I'm navigating, I'm a lot of times not even acting like a two.
Speaker B:Like, I'm not overextending myself, and I'm not saying yes to a bunch of things I don't want to do.
Speaker B:And I'm not saying yes to things and then being resentful about it.
Speaker B:I'm just choosing to do the things I want to do.
Speaker B:And then my schedule happens to be so full that, oh, I have to say no to this thing because I don't have time for it because I'm actually filling my schedule with things I want to do instead.
Speaker B:So I feel a little bit bad sometimes when I do say no in a group setting because I don't wanna risk my place in the group.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:I don't wanna get, like, knocked down a peg or whatever, be, like, a bottom feeder in the group because I'm not complying to the expectations of the group.
Speaker B:So that brings me some concern at times.
Speaker B:But I also think I've done a great job of establishing groups that respect my boundaries and my no.
Speaker B:And so that's not something.
Speaker B:Even at this stage in my life, I'm having to experience friction around at all.
Speaker B:I'm just getting to say yes to things I really want to do.
Speaker D:Yeah.
Speaker D:I would just say that was definitely one of the main markers for me as well, is that when I began to realize, oh, my gosh, no, no, no.
Speaker D:Lindsay is very good at expressing what's important to her, like, better than a lot of people I know.
Speaker D:Not just twos or healthy twos or one or whatever.
Speaker D:It was very.
Speaker D:It was like, how didn't I see this before?
Speaker D:Like, you were very good at expressing what you want and saying, no, I'm done.
Speaker D:I'm going to go and do this now because I've had enough of this.
Speaker D:I see a lot of healthy boundaries in your life.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker C:And the awareness of not just knowing what those things are, not just having a theoretical boundary, but actually implementing it.
Speaker C:Right.
Speaker D:Like, not consistently.
Speaker C:Yeah, consistently over time.
Speaker C:In fact, it's the exception, rather the rule that it doesn't happen.
Speaker D:Yep.
Speaker B:It might take me some time.
Speaker B:If it's something that I really don't find enjoyable, it might take me some time to.
Speaker A:Sure.
Speaker D:But that's one of the main things too, though, to make it happen is we've known you for a long enough amount of time.
Speaker D:It would make sense that we would maybe see sevenness show if you were actually a two.
Speaker D:Sevenness might show up in a few points, but it was like, oh, through the whole span of time that we've witnessed you.
Speaker D:No.
Speaker D:You've been able to express consistently showing up for yourself over and over and over and over.
Speaker D:That's way more consistent than, you know, repressing needs every now and then.
Speaker C:And we've heard A lot because of the nature of our friendship and your business colleagues with the podcast and stuff like that.
Speaker C:We see you at work, we see you at home, we see you with your family, we see you with your friends.
Speaker C:We hear about these things.
Speaker C:And there's a consistent through line there as well, which I think would sort of cross across instinctual biases, for example.
Speaker C:Right.
Speaker C:Like, you're consistently doing this in all the places that you are.
Speaker A:And I'll just, you know, step on my soapbox here and do a little bit of theory ranting.
Speaker A:So as Lindsay's talking, I'm just continually reminded.
Speaker A:I mean, humans are, like, insanely complex.
Speaker A:And even your comparison of, like, the 2 and the 7 of saying yes to things, that action alone is very common for a lot of people.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:But how you're doing it and what.
Speaker A:What angle, what.
Speaker A:How you're feeling about all those things, and I think that's the thing.
Speaker A:One thing that I would want to communicate in this podcast is, first of all, humans are complex.
Speaker A:The enneagram shouldn't be.
Speaker A:Is it nuanced?
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:We got to figure out how to turn the dials of the type, strategy, and instinctual biases and see how they interact, how they like the lines for the strategies, and in the zone of the pattern of expression for the instinctual biases, turn those dials, see what these phenomenons point to as a data trend.
Speaker A:And if we're making the enneagram too complicated, then it starts.
Speaker A:It shouldn't be the complicated thing.
Speaker A:We're the complicated thing.
Speaker A:And that leads me to, I guess, my other point of listening to Lisa Feldman Barrett, as you do, as I do, your girlfriend.
Speaker A:Big fan, Big fan, Big fan.
Speaker A:Lisa.
Speaker C:Lisa, if you're listening, please send a podcast query.
Speaker B:We want you on our show.
Speaker A:Yes.
Speaker A:Would you like to become the second member of our board?
Speaker C:Back of the line, Lisa.
Speaker A:Yes.
Speaker B:Killer board.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:What a star stud.
Speaker A:But she just said in passing about how the brain is a model.
Speaker A:And I mean, as we know.
Speaker D:On.
Speaker A:The season, model is the word of the season.
Speaker A:And your brain is taking in all the different senses, all the different sights, smells, tastes, all the things, and then making a summarization because your brain's in a black box, know, called your head.
Speaker A:Maybe it's a black ball, but oddly shaped ball, but so it doesn't know what's out there.
Speaker A:It's taking educated guesses and trying to create a prediction that is accurate and somewhat dependable.
Speaker A:And then we take the enneagram model that's trying to explain the model of your brain of how you are thinking and operating in the.
Speaker A:The patterns that have grown over time through nature and nurture.
Speaker A:So the Enneagram is a model of a model.
Speaker A:And that, I think, is.
Speaker A:So when that kind of hit me, I'm like, man, that's even more.
Speaker A:Why it's even more important to hold the Enneagram in all of its claims so loosely, because it's there to help simplify the.
Speaker A:The already complex enough model of our brain, and it's there to generalize and to help categorize the things that we were doing out there and then bringing some sort of categorization back in so we can have better handles and better stories to tell about those things.
Speaker A:And I think we would all agree it's.
Speaker A:We, you know, we don't have a type inside of us that is making us do certain things.
Speaker A:We are doing things, and then we are recategorizing these things into this enneagram model, accompanied with the instinctual biases that explain better why we do what we do and how we do it.
Speaker A:And that's such.
Speaker A:I think that's a nuanced thing, and maybe people don't understand what I'm saying.
Speaker A:Saying, but I, I.
Speaker A:It's.
Speaker B:It's just not a new thing.
Speaker A:It's.
Speaker A:Yeah, yeah, it's true.
Speaker A:It's a slight twist that I think has a massive downstream effect of how we hold type, because I think the other way of seeing, it creates the harmful stereotypes that takes away your power, that takes away your nuance, that takes away you being you and your humanness and your complexity and your identities.
Speaker A:And so, I guess, okay, there's my rant.
Speaker A:And what I'm pitching to you all is, like, this idea of stereotype.
Speaker A:What are these stereotypes of 2 and 7, Lindsay, that you kind of lived into, found hard to deal with, and.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker A:What's your experience around that?
Speaker B:Yeah, I'll answer that question.
Speaker B:And then I also want to say, I think one of the things that kept me anytime my brain would float to, like, because it's not the first time it's come up even in my own brain, like, am I a 7?
Speaker B:And then I would start to think, well, I'm not shallow.
Speaker B:I'm not flaky.
Speaker B:Like, I show up when I say I'm gonna show up.
Speaker B:I don't, like, leave people hanging.
Speaker B:I don't avoid difficult conversations.
Speaker B:I don't avoid my own pain or the pain of other people.
Speaker D:So maybe you're not.
Speaker B:I'm not selfish.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:You know, But I think that, like what.
Speaker B:I'm not saying that sevens are the things I just said.
Speaker B:What I'm saying is this is how sevens get taught.
Speaker B:And so when we're not teaching the types properly or well, we're literally keeping people from coming to their correct type.
Speaker B:And just for the record, sevens aren't any of those things that I just said any more than any other type can be any of those things that I just said.
Speaker B:And as far as two goes, this whole giving to get idea, I don't think I'm a great gift giver at all.
Speaker B:It's not something I would pride myself on.
Speaker B:I also do enjoy that.
Speaker B:When I do get you a gift that you enjoy it, I think that's across the board for every human being that has ever bought a gift for anybody in the history of time, you want that gift to matter because you put money or time or intention into it.
Speaker B:That's not the same as giving to get.
Speaker B:And so I think that having things like that, that go unexplained.
Speaker B:Let's expound, let's define our terms better.
Speaker B:What do we mean by giving to get?
Speaker B:And when I was with Mario and MJ in the ATA and he said everybody gives to get, I just remember this huge sense of relief washing over me and not realizing that I was holding this constriction in myself around.
Speaker B:Is everyone suspicious of my giving?
Speaker B:Will I ever be able to give?
Speaker B:If I tell someone I'm a two, that's it, they're suspicious of me forever.
Speaker B:I can never give of myself in any way without it coming under suspicion.
Speaker B:Now, can I just say, this is.
Speaker D:My version of yawning?
Speaker D:And you all just assume I'm lazy.
Speaker B:Okay, you can't yawn.
Speaker B:You don't have the ability to.
Speaker D:Right.
Speaker D:But everybody yawns, damn it.
Speaker B:Everybody yawns.
Speaker D:I'm not lazy.
Speaker C:This is how I feel about opinions.
Speaker B:Yes.
Speaker B:And belly buttons.
Speaker B:We all have them.
Speaker C:Mostly.
Speaker C:Mostly, I would say, too, about that, about the teaching.
Speaker C:This comes back to creek the point you were making about simplification.
Speaker C:Right.
Speaker C:I think that the.
Speaker C:The earnest effort of heavy quotes, the Enneagram literature, is to teach well, right?
Speaker C:When you're trying to language things, it gets complicated fast.
Speaker C:Right.
Speaker C:Because we're trying to give words to unspoken, unconscious motivations.
Speaker C:Right.
Speaker C:And that almost always starts pointing to behavior because that's where we can give examples.
Speaker C:Right.
Speaker C:And I may only be halfway through the history episode, and I know you have a long season of talking with all the different schools about their approaches, right?
Speaker C:But I know that all of the different schools have been trying with dedication and integrity to teach well.
Speaker B:Yeah, sure.
Speaker C:Right.
Speaker C:And, like, there are different kinds of learners in the world, right.
Speaker C:So some things are gonna resonate better for some people in one school or another or whatever.
Speaker C:And more words give more places for things to be complicated, you know?
Speaker C:And this is something.
Speaker C:When Lindsay and I were talking about 2 and 7 and stuff like that, we were talking about boundaries at some point, right?
Speaker C:We had a conversation going.
Speaker C:All of us did, but we were using real words on a synchronous telephone call.
Speaker C:And.
Speaker C:And finally, I was like, what boundaries mean to you.
Speaker C:Describe an example of a boundary you have applied or broken.
Speaker C:Right.
Speaker C:And when she did, the boundary was around.
Speaker C:It's okay if I share this, right, Lindsay?
Speaker C:It was around other people saying that Lindsay's boundaries were too big.
Speaker C:Right.
Speaker C:It was like the complaint was, we don't get enough of you.
Speaker C:Right.
Speaker C:And so it's like, oh, that's what people bent by boundaries.
Speaker C:I'm like, well, some people, when they say they have trouble with boundaries, mean it in the other direction.
Speaker C:Right.
Speaker C:And I think Abram was sort of bringing this forward before.
Speaker C:Like, if you, Lindsay, as not A two, have this experience of this feeling of.
Speaker C:I can't remember exactly what the example was earlier in the call, but if you're feeling this.
Speaker C:This heavy about this as a 7, imagine how much more intense it must be for a person who's really operating with a two strategy.
Speaker C:If you're at 75% and it feels like a lot, they must be at, like, 120%, right?
Speaker C:And I think that, well, this is just rambling, and you're just going to have to deal with me externally processing.
Speaker C:And I know you all are used to it, whether your listeners are or not, but.
Speaker C:But one of the things that I think is so important is doing stuff with the Enneagram.
Speaker C:Working with the Enneagram goes beyond awareness, right.
Speaker C:And all of these behaviors point us to being able to see ourselves, right?
Speaker C:Oh, yeah, I do that.
Speaker C:So I must be this.
Speaker C:And then you become identified with it.
Speaker C:And this is not just what I do.
Speaker C:It's who I am.
Speaker C:And the model is supposed to help us have a clearer perspective that that's not all of who we are.
Speaker C:Right.
Speaker C:And there are going to be, like, if I'm a person who's striving to feel perfect, I'm going to be looking for mistakes.
Speaker C:I'm going to see them in myself, and I'm going to see them outside of myself.
Speaker C:They are going to take up a disproportionate amount of the screen time in my head, right?
Speaker C:And then I'm going to have a habit of noticing them and doing something about it, right?
Speaker C:And the Enneagram is like, hey, if things aren't working well, start here, right?
Speaker C:You don't have to never see another mistake or never, you know, never be excited about something again.
Speaker C:You know, when we're talking about that, it's like, this is the gift of the seven, right?
Speaker C:Is to have joy and excitement and defy limitation, right?
Speaker C:And with the connecting points on the Enneagram, that's somebody's best day.
Speaker C:You know whose best day that is?
Speaker C:Mine at point one, right?
Speaker C:Like, people would say, oh, sevens are flaky.
Speaker C:I do not get that feedback.
Speaker C:Right?
Speaker C:I get you should let up, right?
Speaker C:You're too rigid.
Speaker C:I'm like, well, yeah, okay, right.
Speaker C:Can nobody be satisfied with anything?
Speaker C:You know?
Speaker C:But I'm saying the stereotypes are only part of the picture.
Speaker B:One thing you said to me on that phone call was, you might have to help me remember, because I obviously am forgetting these conversations, but the idea of not dealing with things that are too heavy before you're ready to deal with them, and what a wonderful coping mechanism that can be.
Speaker B:You use the words, that's a brilliant coping mechanism that's kept you safe in a lot of situations that you were not emotionally ready to deal with.
Speaker B:And that was another relief moment where I was like, oh, this doesn't have to be explained as like a.
Speaker B:I just want to have fun all the time, and I never want to deal with anything that's hard.
Speaker B:It's like, not yet.
Speaker B:And also, I know how to keep myself going and enjoying my life and enjoying the beauty of the world and the beauty of the people in my life and getting energy from that so that I can do the hard things that I have to do.
Speaker B:And one thing I said to another friend I was talking about, you know, coming up to this episode, I said, I just really want in the Enneagram space to use more language like what you did with me, Lee.
Speaker B:Because it felt like such a wonderful container and a way to hold me in a way that lets me honor myself, love myself, embrace myself, instead of like, oh, here's a long list of things that I'm being told I am, and I need to work on and I need to get better at it.
Speaker B:And it's like, maybe, but maybe not.
Speaker B:Maybe you're doing a really good job, and maybe this is just part of how you Do a really good job.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker B:You know.
Speaker A:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker C:And that we can turn in the Enneagram space.
Speaker C:We're really vulnerable to turn ourselves into fix it projects.
Speaker C:Right.
Speaker C:Every time I see myself, oh, there it goes again.
Speaker C:Right.
Speaker C:And this is where I think that some of the language in some schools of thought about, like, transcending your ego or, you know, that that's required to grow.
Speaker C:It's like, you know, no, you need a strategy, right.
Speaker C:To live as a human.
Speaker C:And you've already got this one.
Speaker C:So work with it.
Speaker C:You know, like our teacher Mario Sakura says, you're not broken.
Speaker C:You just need a little help.
Speaker C:Right.
Speaker C:And that I think that.
Speaker C:And the second perspective that I think it's a trap that we fall into in the Enneagram when we try to make it solve everything is we forget that it's a tool to help us be able to live better.
Speaker C:Right.
Speaker C:The living part is the point.
Speaker C:Right.
Speaker C:It's not the I get another punch card on my free latte that I caught myself doing that type strategy again and then feel bad about it.
Speaker C:The whole point is, how do I live more skillfully, not how do I manage my personality more skillfully?
Speaker B:Preach well.
Speaker B:And I will say I have noticed ways that I do the seven thing male adaptively.
Speaker B:And it's not all just like, oh, I'm doing this strategy brilliantly.
Speaker B:And it's like, my son was really upset about something.
Speaker B:Really upset.
Speaker B:And he comes in and he has.
Speaker B:He shows his anger with his body and he wants to punch things and he wants to scream into pillows and all of this.
Speaker B:And he's in that mode.
Speaker B:And I'm like, hugging him and I'm trying to, like, be present to him.
Speaker B:And I was like, you know, you have a birthday party on Saturday that you get to go to.
Speaker C:And I went, oh, no.
Speaker C:Like, okay, Lighten is my old friend.
Speaker C:Too soon, Too soon.
Speaker B:And so it's been super helpful.
Speaker B:I would have never noticed that I was doing that if I hadn't had the language to say, oh, that might not feel good to him.
Speaker B:You know, that might be more about what I need in this moment to alleviate, oh, my child is in pain.
Speaker B:Can I make it better?
Speaker B:Faster?
Speaker B:Yeah, I'm gonna try this.
Speaker B:You know, not needed in that moment.
Speaker C:That knowledge is adaptive.
Speaker C:Right.
Speaker C:You built a skill right there in the self awareness of like, oh, I just.
Speaker C:I'm trying to save him from bad feelings and save me from his hard feelings feelings and all this stuff.
Speaker C:I can do it a different way.
Speaker C:I can just not say that right this second.
Speaker C:Right.
Speaker C:And that changes things for both of you.
Speaker D:I mean, I was thinking that this is an example of what you pay attention to, determines what you see and also what you miss.
Speaker D:And so this is like, this is the example and my mind of the model.
Speaker D:Of the model.
Speaker D:Which model are you carrying is pretty important.
Speaker D:And I don't know, I wonder at what point is it helpful for our listeners to hear that you should inquire upon your type that you hold right now?
Speaker D:Because potentially, based on the information you've understood about the enneagram or the types themselves, you might have inaccurate knowledge.
Speaker D:And so you might be, you know, your model, the model about yourself you might be carrying might not be as accurate as it could be, though it's still valuable and it's still helping in some way.
Speaker D:It's still bringing awareness because everybody does all of these behaviors.
Speaker D:And so it's valuable to figure out which behaviors you're doing on automatic.
Speaker D:But maybe there's a collection of behaviors do you are even more on automatic with that are getting you in more trouble.
Speaker D:But because you're using a potentially a not accurate model, you're.
Speaker D:You're unable to see those or you're interpreting them incorrectly.
Speaker D:You know, so what's the.
Speaker D:What's the point at which maybe you need to ask, am I a 9?
Speaker A:When people ask like, well, aren't this.
Speaker A:Isn't this type like this?
Speaker A:And isn't this type like this?
Speaker A:And I'm like, well, first of all, it depends on who's describing this.
Speaker A:And it's really about like, I have a friend who I believe is a three.
Speaker A:He thinks he's a four, he's not a four.
Speaker A:And he's like, well, I mean, like, I have emotion.
Speaker A:I have, like, I feel things deeply, and I like artistic things.
Speaker A:And I'm like, this, this, this is where you're drawing the line on what A4 is and what A4 is not.
Speaker A:So we.
Speaker A:Let's draw better lines that actually encapsulate a more specific but not overly specific way of operating in the world.
Speaker A:So any good theory knows where to start and where to end.
Speaker A:And a lot of people, you don't know where to draw the line for ending.
Speaker A:That's a lot harder than where to start.
Speaker A:So I think for.
Speaker A:Yeah, in that respect, trying to answer your question here, Seth, but it's.
Speaker A:I think I'm just highlighting the importance of going behind stage and being like, okay, but what am I saying is this type, you know, I can call an.
Speaker A:I can call eight an emotionally intense type, you know, and that fits a lot of people.
Speaker A:Okay.
Speaker A:If.
Speaker A:If an emotionally intense type is an 8, then a lot of people are eights.
Speaker A:But what's more helpful here in how we categorize these types?
Speaker A:So getting behind that, and then I think once you get behind that and.
Speaker A:And clarify what it is to be a type, what's the.
Speaker A:What's the starting categorization, what's the end categorization, then you can start seeing more clearly.
Speaker A:But until you kind of reassess how you are implicitly or explicitly assuming things about what a type is and what characteristics exist in that category, you're not going to be able to see clearly.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:And I also think, like to echo Lee's point about the connecting points, that was another space where things really started to lock into place for me.
Speaker B:Two versus seven.
Speaker B:Because I had started to use the connecting points of two as paths of growth.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:I'm feeling uncomfortable about being too unique right now.
Speaker B:Too distinct.
Speaker B:Feeling a little threatening to me.
Speaker B:But that's okay.
Speaker B:This is a growth point for me is too.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:It's not something that I just do.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:Also 8.
Speaker B:It was like, this is a way for me to grow.
Speaker B:It wasn't like, I see myself on this line when I'm thinking about seven and I.
Speaker B:And I'm thinking about five and I'm thinking about one.
Speaker B:That's what it's like on the inside of my brain.
Speaker B:Like, I don't know any other way to say it.
Speaker B:Like, that is what I feel like.
Speaker B:I live on those lines.
Speaker B:And so that could be another answer to your question.
Speaker B:Abram is like, if you're looking at the connecting points and they're only offering you ways to contemplate things you can work on skills you can improve.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:It's not going to hurt you hurt.
Speaker B:You have to think about that.
Speaker B:But if you're not scary, and it might feel hurtful, but if you don't see your footprints, like walking that line back and forth, it could be that that's because those aren't your lines that you've been walking day in and out your whole life.
Speaker C:Right.
Speaker D:Yeah.
Speaker D:But I think it's still easy to read yourself into behavior.
Speaker C:Sure.
Speaker B:Yeah, yeah, yeah, it is.
Speaker C:You know, easy to read yourself into behavior and very difficult to know what your true motivation is.
Speaker C:Right.
Speaker C:Because you wind up explaining through context why what is happening.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:Like, oh, I'm a one wing, I'm a two, so I have a one wing.
Speaker B:And then if I'm in harmony, triads then there's five.
Speaker B:You know, like it just.
Speaker C:You can slice and dice that thing where literally everything is connected.
Speaker C:And that's where your point about simplification comes in.
Speaker C:And my response to Abram's question of when should you question your type is always right.
Speaker C:It's.
Speaker C:It's, you know, you'll be in an Enneagram room, and what's a phrase that you hear?
Speaker C:If we had a bingo card for it, a phrase that you would be.
Speaker C:Would hear would be hold it loosely.
Speaker B:Hold it loosely.
Speaker C:That's what that means.
Speaker C:Yeah, right.
Speaker C:It means, don't get so sure.
Speaker C:Right.
Speaker C:And this, and another thing, seeking to falsify doesn't mean mean proving you're wrong.
Speaker C:It's just looking at what's really happening.
Speaker C:Continuing to have a mindset of receptivity toward reality in as broad a sense as possible.
Speaker C:Yeah, right.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker C:So instead of getting trapped in, oh, this is what happened, and immediately say, why did it happen?
Speaker C:And then stop thinking about what happened.
Speaker C:What.
Speaker C:Well, here's what happened, and here's what happened, and here's what happened.
Speaker C:That's better data.
Speaker C:And again, we don't have to change things that aren't.
Speaker C:We don't have to change things that are working.
Speaker C:Right.
Speaker C:So when friction is introduced to the system, that's when you need to look at something.
Speaker C:Right.
Speaker C: point, and this is absolutely: Speaker C:It's what's really happening.
Speaker C:So it may need a different tool than what you would assign yourself, what you would limit yourself to in your toolbox as a seven.
Speaker C:It's not happening because you're afraid of being limited.
Speaker C:It's happening because you know something else.
Speaker C:Right.
Speaker C:You're a human being who doesn't like to be gaslit.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker C:Right.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:Welcome to the club.
Speaker C:Welcome to the club.
Speaker C:So you don't have to change something about yourself to not want that experience.
Speaker C:Right.
Speaker C:It's not because of who you are.
Speaker C:It's so which tool do you need for the task?
Speaker C:Is my point.
Speaker B:One thing that I've decided I'm going to do differently this time.
Speaker B:Time is when I.
Speaker B:When I got this result of being a 2, I kind of dove into myself very deeply.
Speaker B:To mine all of that and figure it out and master it.
Speaker B:And what feels so much better, to your point, Lee, is Just living my life, letting things surface, come into my awareness and addressing them as they do.
Speaker B:Like the situation with my son.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:It's like this is real life lived in the moment.
Speaker B:And I'm having a moment of going, oh, and it just feels so much better to do it that way than like I'm going to buy all the books and read all the articles and listen to all the podcasts and find myself in all these ways.
Speaker B:That's making yourself the project.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:And I do think that I limited the enjoyment of the process in some way.
Speaker B:And also that's a really, really huge, like, fast track to confirmation bias also.
Speaker B:So just letting the process slowly unfold and letting what's in you come to the surface naturally is kind of how I've resolved to do it going forward.
Speaker D:I think it's really, really obviously hard to see the why for your behavior because it is the water you've always swam in.
Speaker D:And I think the mind is the most brilliant interpreter, but not always great at truth telling.
Speaker D:And I wonder though, if emotions are more accurately telling under the surface before the mind is co opting them and interpreting them.
Speaker D:And so I think there's something to say about emotions themselves in that the.
Speaker D:The example of emotion from Lisa Heldman, Lisa Feldman, Harriet.
Speaker A:She's going to be on our board.
Speaker C:To figure out how to say her name lfb.
Speaker D:In that, you know, emotions start as neutral.
Speaker D:Like going back to the thing I said earlier, everything starts as neutral and then, you know, is then perspective implied or applied.
Speaker D:But I just, I wonder if by saying emotion, I just mean maybe a good way to wonder if you should or could call into question your previously held type is when the opposite of it isn't making you uncomfortable and when what you're good at doesn't also get you in trouble when you do it too much.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker D:You know what I mean?
Speaker B:Won't it always get you in trouble if you're doing it too much?
Speaker C:Probably so, yeah.
Speaker D:But I just don't think you're going to do the thing that you're truly not too much because it's not the most important strategy to help you get your needs met.
Speaker A:You know the whole connection piece with like, you, Lindsay.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker D:Did any of that make sense?
Speaker D:I hope it did.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker A:No, that was really fresh stuff, actually.
Speaker C:Yeah, I soaked.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker D:What?
Speaker C:Apparently Creek's trying out the new lingo.
Speaker B:And we are on board with it.
Speaker C:The board is not on board with it.
Speaker C:The board would like to let the Youngs keep their lingo.
Speaker B:You don't have to use it, just support it.
Speaker C:I support them using it.
Speaker C:Going back to what Abram was saying about it being the water you swim in or if you aren't going to do the thing enough to get really in trouble with it.
Speaker C:Right.
Speaker C:I think this comes back to intention and impact because when we are in the end the thing we're doing is how we're trying to connect with everybody.
Speaker C:No matter what our type is.
Speaker C:It's how we're trying to contribute to society and the world.
Speaker C:It's how we are being a person.
Speaker C:It's coloring how we are being a person.
Speaker C:And so we're going to keep trying to give that gift because it's the one we've got.
Speaker C:It's like this is my perspective.
Speaker C:This is, you know, don't you guys see this?
Speaker C:Or this is what I can contribute, this is what I can bring.
Speaker C:This is the perspective I have.
Speaker C:And so that's what I've got to give.
Speaker C:And when other people don't seem to be listening to it, all of us have a tendency to say it louder.
Speaker C:Right.
Speaker C:However that is and it may be moving in closer, it may be pulling back further, but we're going to amplify that strategy.
Speaker C:And that is where the criticisms and the complaints tend to come in for people is when they feel impacted negatively by your well intentioned stuff, you will.
Speaker A:Be you regardless of what you call it.
Speaker C:Yeah, sure.
Speaker C:Pick a number.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker D:You could just ask your friends what do I do Too much of.
Speaker D:It's a good way to figure out what your type is.
Speaker A:Totally.
Speaker D:Yeah.
Speaker A:And I think this is coming back to a little bit of your original question Seth, of like what not only when but why do people have a hard time with retyping themselves?
Speaker A:And like I think there are, I mean hot off the press there, there are major teachers that I think like dumb, predominant, predominant teachers that I think are.
Speaker A:Are mistyped.
Speaker A:Sure.
Speaker A:Maybe according to.
Speaker C:So.
Speaker A:Maybe it's because they don't.
Speaker A:They're using different model.
Speaker A:I think there's also just.
Speaker A:When you've lived in a.
Speaker A:When you've lived in a particular identity and type for so long, if you've been teaching under that type for so long, man, it's hard to be like I'm wrong.
Speaker A:The person that's supposed to be the expert is not the expert because I couldn't see myself.
Speaker C:And not just the mistake part, but the identity.
Speaker C:I have taken myself to be these things.
Speaker C:This is how I understand myself.
Speaker C:And so if you take away if that's wrong I don't know myself anymore.
Speaker C:Not just I made a mistake and I'm going to be embarrassed in public.
Speaker C:Right.
Speaker C:I don't know how to orient to my.
Speaker C:Myself anymore.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:And this is.
Speaker A:I mean, there's multiple layers to our new tagline of serious work for unserious humans.
Speaker A:But I think that's.
Speaker A:In some ways, that's what you were talking about, Lindsay, with your son.
Speaker A:Like, as well.
Speaker A:Of just like, listen, we're just.
Speaker A:We're unserious.
Speaker A:We're humans and human.
Speaker A:Like, in order to get through this, we got to do some serious work, but we got to hold it lightly.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:We gotta be able to make fun of ourselves.
Speaker A:We got to be like, oh, man, I missed that.
Speaker A:And wow, that's great.
Speaker A:Look how much I can see now.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker A:And I mean, really, we're pointing to humility.
Speaker A:We're pointing to intensity and humility, gravity and levity, all the things.
Speaker A:I think that's kind of bringing us into kind of our final point of those that are questioning their type or they're trying to find their type.
Speaker A:You know, what's that process, like, what has that process been like for you, Lindsay, of kind of reorienting your story, re.
Speaker A:Categorizing these behaviors and emotions and ways of being?
Speaker A:What's that been like, and what have you found useful?
Speaker B:It's been really fun, honestly.
Speaker B:It's just been a great time.
Speaker B:I.
Speaker B:I did.
Speaker B:I feel like I have these moments where I did experience this sort of imposter syndrome, fraud kind of, you know, inner critic moment where it's like, how are you supposed to help people using this tool when you didn't even do it correctly for yourself?
Speaker B:I think that speaks to two things.
Speaker B:One could just be that this tool is meant to be used in community.
Speaker B:That's when it's most effective.
Speaker B:And part of how we need them both.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:Part of how we hold each other is how we learn to hold ourselves and how well we hold ourselves as how well we will hold each other.
Speaker B:I just forgot everything else I was going to say that was beautiful enough.
Speaker B:I want to.
Speaker B:Oh.
Speaker B:I was just saying, like, I.
Speaker B:It felt like I was going to be some kind of a laughingstock.
Speaker B:I'll never be able to take myself seriously again.
Speaker B:People won't take me seriously.
Speaker B:People will be disappointed in me.
Speaker B:I have had to work through those things.
Speaker B:And I feel like I'm just coming to the point where it's like, if you want to be.
Speaker B:If you want to think of me as not worthy to do this work, or use this tool or help other people with it.
Speaker B:Go ahead.
Speaker B:Fine.
Speaker B:Fine.
Speaker B:Do it.
Speaker B:That's not how I'm holding this tool.
Speaker B:That's not how I'm going to use it.
Speaker B:As a way of seeing who really can know themselves the best and who can really do this.
Speaker B:Well, yeah, I'm not interested.
Speaker B:So just going on the record here saying I'm an Enneagram professional.
Speaker B:I was mistyped and I'm gonna be okay and so will you.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker B:And I'm still thinking.
Speaker B:I still feel like I'm doing good work with this and still able to help other people.
Speaker B:And I'll probably help other people mistype themselves at some point.
Speaker B:Like, of course.
Speaker B:It's just, it's.
Speaker B:It's complex.
Speaker D:Yeah.
Speaker D:I was just going to ask how this has shaped your relationship with yourself or allowed in new parts of yourself to be welcome.
Speaker B:Well, I think I.
Speaker B:One thing I remember saying to you guys was, I want you to tell me not just the good things you see.
Speaker B:I also want you to tell me if there's something that's negative that you're noticing too, like the negative data points.
Speaker B:But I feel like.
Speaker B:I don't know.
Speaker B:I just.
Speaker B:I don't know how to say it other than to say I just don't feel like I care that much about the number.
Speaker B:Something about this process actually helped, like, helped me let go of the number.
Speaker B:I feel like when I thought I was a 2, I really saw myself in that space and like, it was almost like I just saw the number two over myself.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:And now I feel like, oh, I don't.
Speaker B:Like, whatever.
Speaker B:Does that make sense?
Speaker B:I don't.
Speaker B:It feels almost counterintuitive.
Speaker B:But that's just what's happened.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:I think.
Speaker A:And this is where a lot of people, when they get confused about their type, they're like, I mean, don't we just have all the types in us?
Speaker A:Or, you know, does type even really matter?
Speaker A:And it's like, I mean, no, but yeah, if you want to use the model, like, you gotta be one.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker A:And I remember, like, I remember when I went from thinking preserving self preservation to navigating, it was.
Speaker A:It was like, I mean, I went through those same stages.
Speaker A:I'm not like putting anyone down for that, but I went through those same stages of.
Speaker A:Kind of stages of grief or whatever of just denying and rationalizing and all these other things.
Speaker A:And eventually it's like, what?
Speaker A:Let's just like, let go of it all, put it all down, who cares?
Speaker A:And just, let's just Watch myself and see what happens and lightly applying the different theories and seeing which one snaps into place easier.
Speaker A:And I remember all of a sudden seeing, oh my goodness, there's a gift here of navigating that I was never able to lean into.
Speaker A:I just thought it was a weird, quirky thing that I did.
Speaker A:I'm like, no, I'm actually really good at what I do in this, in this arena.
Speaker A:And I can claim that now because there's a more coherent story to it.
Speaker A:So, yeah, it's like the sort of avoidance of like, I don't want to be boxed in.
Speaker A:And then you pick type and then you become mistypes, like, how does it really matter?
Speaker A:It's just hard.
Speaker A:It's just hard to switch.
Speaker A:It's hard to see yourself differently.
Speaker A:And that's okay.
Speaker C:I would add to that I had a instinctual bias conversion myself working with awareness to action.
Speaker C:Right.
Speaker C:In that model.
Speaker C:I don't know what in other models I might be.
Speaker C:The thing that you're saying Creek, about being able to see it as a strength, it's like, oh, now I can figure out how to work with this thing I'm going to be doing anyway.
Speaker B:Right, exactly.
Speaker C:And I think too, one of the things that that experience did for me, me of looking at the different instinctual bias was I became a lot less certain about everything and the physical sensation.
Speaker C:You know, Mario Sakura says, certainty feels the same whether you're right or not.
Speaker C:And that is so true.
Speaker C:And Abram, sort of to a point that you were making earlier, there are physical sensations that go along with the feeling of certainty.
Speaker C:It is a sturdy, fairly rigid, sometimes boundaries, sometimes braced, but it is a well foundationed, concretized belief.
Speaker C:And if you let uncertainty in and begin to become more comfortable with not feeling the sensation of certainty in one area, then you get a lot more resilient.
Speaker C:Right.
Speaker C:And a lot more able to sort of move with whatever comes up.
Speaker C:Right.
Speaker C:And that's true of your enneagram type or your opinions on anything.
Speaker C:How much are you trying to control the way you feel in your body by having these demands that you have control over understanding what's happening in a certain way.
Speaker C:Right.
Speaker D:Yeah.
Speaker C:And Lindsay, I'm hearing you saying that it's liberating not to have this label on yourself that you're trying to.
Speaker C:I'm not saying this is what you were consciously doing, but you're going around like looking for confirmation bias to prove your identity when you were a two.
Speaker C:Right.
Speaker C:It's like, well, I'm seeing these things that don't fit with that.
Speaker C:So I gotta find some more stuff that does.
Speaker C:And that's twisting yourself into a pretzel when there are also pretzel sticks.
Speaker C:I don't know, the analogy breaks down.
Speaker C:But the point is you can be freer by not caring so much what the label is.
Speaker C:And again, just using the model when you have something where you need to use it, you don't have to lug around your toolbox everywhere all the time.
Speaker C:But when you need tools, you need tools.
Speaker D:Yeah, I think Lee, to.
Speaker D:I think one of the last things I'll say is just to go along with that is when you're looking for your type, you're.
Speaker D:You're less wanting that to be motivated by what you're certain about certainty and you're more so wanting that to be motivated by the consistency you see, because what I'm just hearing throughout this whole thing is it is so important to watch how you view and talk to yourself because that's inevitably what you then begin to believe to be true.
Speaker D:You know, because again, the mind is a very good interpreter.
Speaker D:But how well you hold the way you speak to yourself, the way you view yourself, you get to interpret, you know, your behavior.
Speaker D:I think that's the meaning that we get to make.
Speaker C:Well, you get to interpret your behavior, but you're not always right, right?
Speaker C:Because you still bring your intentions in there in order to, in order to really productively interpret your behavior.
Speaker C:You do need tools, right?
Speaker C:Or you do need community or somebody else to help you see what's going on, or a model to use to be able to see parts of yourself that you are prone not to.
Speaker C:That's where this thing's helpful.
Speaker C:Right?
Speaker A:And I guess final point from me and then Lindsay would love a send off from you unless anyone else has something to say.
Speaker A:But I think this is also just another data point of how important it is to have critical thinking skills of being able to not only process your stories and find different ways to see the same thing, find different perspectives, but also be able to regulate your nervous system and to practice intentional discomfort and to be able to think through, you know, what's true and what's real, and then be able to, you know, again, critically think what is the, you know, what's the action step, the clear, obvious, easy next step that's going to take me in a different trajectory, that's more skillful, mature and adaptive.
Speaker A:And that's what the Enneagram's here for.
Speaker A:Otherwise it's complete and utter nonsense and useless and a Waste of time.
Speaker A:There's the poll quote out of context.
Speaker C:Tell us what you really think.
Speaker A:And I think we're kind of all in this state where we are solidly in the Enneagram community, and we're also solidly like, God, this is so limited and boring at a certain level when it's.
Speaker A:When life is the exciting part.
Speaker A:And this is just.
Speaker A:It's just a hammer.
Speaker A:We got a hammer.
Speaker A:We got obsessed with the hammer.
Speaker A:And it's like, what are you going to build, though?
Speaker A:Like, that's.
Speaker A:Come on.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker B:So, Lindsay, anybody else before I.
Speaker D:That's a good T shirt, I think.
Speaker D:Don't get obsessed with the hammer.
Speaker D:Get excited about the life you're going to build with it.
Speaker A:Merch.
Speaker C:Merch.
Speaker C:Build a nail shop.
Speaker B:I love that life.
Speaker B:Life is where the excitement happens.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:Thanks for listening, everybody.
Speaker B:We just.
Speaker B:We felt like it was important to bring you in on this process as some.
Speaker B:At some point as just part of our ethos and the values that we hold as fathoms, to be as transparent as possible and to do this work with compassion and kindness and ethically.
Speaker B:And so that's what we're doing here, is just to kind of show you in real time what this is like and what this process of mistyping, finding your type can be like.
Speaker B:So if you've gone through this, we'd love to hear from you.
Speaker B:We'd love for you to reach out to us and you can find in the show notes some ways to do that.
Speaker B:But we would really love to hear what it's been like for you.
Speaker B:Leave us a message on Instagram or comment on one of our posts and yeah, happy typing and mistyping.
Speaker A:And I'll say one more thing, Lindsay, thanks for being such a great example of how to do this and like, the humility, the bravery, you know, I mean, just because it was easy or were different levels of hard doesn't mean that it wasn't some level of brave and confusing and shake.
Speaker A:Shook the foundation a little bit.
Speaker A:But I think that's.
Speaker A:That speaks a lot to your character.
Speaker B:Well, thank you guys for being amazing friends.
Speaker C:Grateful to be a friend.
Speaker A:Thanks for listening to Fathoms in Enneagram podcast.
Speaker A:If this episode affected you in some way, we'd love it if you would share it with a friend or family member.
Speaker A:Don't forget to check out the show notes for ways to connect with us and continue your serious work as an unserious human.
Speaker C:Are we going to fake people out and tell them that she thought she was a 4?
Speaker B:This is prime opportunity for a prank.
Speaker B:Yeah, you're totally right.
Speaker A:Well, we were kidding.
Speaker D:We never.
Speaker D:We always thought you were too.
Speaker D:We actually didn't think it was.
Speaker C:Yeah, right.
Speaker C:It was opposite day.
Speaker C:I did think we should title the episode not a 4 hashtag.
Speaker B:We're gonna let you guess which number, but we're just gonna tell you right now.
Speaker B:It's not fun.
Speaker A:It's not for.
Speaker C:It's not for.
Speaker C:Look, we told you right up.
Speaker A:Even the sunny type.
Speaker D:Yeah.
Speaker A:All right.
Speaker C:It's called the real sunny type.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker D:Maybe we never say it.
Speaker A:Okay.
Speaker D:I'll begin.
Speaker A:I think we need to drop it soon or else people are like, why are we talking about this?
Speaker B:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker D:I think Lindsay.
Speaker C:Nice rationalization.
Speaker A:Who invited you?
Speaker C:You.
Speaker A:Regularly.
Speaker A:I know.
Speaker C:Choices have consequences, Cree.
Speaker C:Everybody's saying it.
Speaker A:Everyone's saying.
