Type 9: The Significance of Peace, Presence, and Harmony

Abram: 00:00:02

Welcome back to fathoms. It's welcome Back to Fathoms. Mr. Abram here and Creek and Lindsey and we are.

It's a special day because it's a special type that we get to talk about today.

Lindsey: 00:00:24

So special.

Abram: 00:00:26

Yeah, it's very true. Type talk where we talked about your.

Creek: 00:00:30

Type, to be clear. But.

Abram: 00:00:33

Well, we can wrestle about that later.

Creek: 00:00:36

Okay.

Lindsey: 00:00:38

Considering the conversation we had before we hit record.

Creek: 00:00:41

And if you want to see footage of Seth and I wrestling, you can sign up for our membership portal.

Abram: 00:00:50

Yes.

Creek: 00:00:52

If you want to see Seth absolutely livid.

Lindsey: 00:00:58

Start a fantasy wrestling league.

Abram: 00:01:00

I want to see a 9 get angry. That was a rare moment, though. This 9 is out of practice, so. But that would be.

Creek: 00:01:09

So you should be more angry is what you're saying.

Abram: 00:01:12

Yeah, yeah. It's going to be great. Yeah, yeah. Tune in.

Creek: 00:01:16

Tune in. Pay per view.

Abram: 00:01:20

Well, we wanted to. Since we know that not everybody's.

We're going to likely listen to every episode, we wanted to just kind of bring back a few terms and define those just for clarity purpose. But to begin with, some of these that we want to define were initially type, because that's what we're talking about. Right.

Type is a category of people or things having common characteristics. It's a person or thing symbolizing or exemplifying a fun word. The ideal or defining characteristics of something.

Creek: 00:01:54

All right. The other one you may hear in this episode is strategy, A plan of action or policy designed to achieve a major or overall aim.

Lindsey: 00:02:07

Next we have pattern. Pattern. Okay. Next is pattern. A regular and intelligible form or sequence discernible in certain actions or situations.

Creek: 00:02:20

And finally, model. I'm hoping that all of you, all, including ourselves, will have this one memorized by the time we get done with this season.

Lindsey: 00:02:28

Let's say it together.

Creek: 00:02:30

Here we go. I want to do now.

Lindsey: 00:02:36

Provisional.

Abram: 00:02:37

Provisional description of a system or process.

Lindsey: 00:02:43

To assist calculations and predictions.

Abram: 00:02:46

Holy cow.

Creek: 00:02:48

Or I could just read it. A simplified and provisional description of a system or process to assist calculations and predictions.

Lindsey: 00:03:00

That was way less fun.

Creek: 00:03:03

It's clear. Doesn't have to be fun.

Abram: 00:03:07

And something that is unique to the type we are talking about today is a term we should define and get into a little bit, which is conflict. Or you can say conflict.

Lindsey: 00:03:20

If you're not French, you can just say conflict.

Abram: 00:03:25

Yeah. So what you have for us here today, Creek, is a serie series conflict. Definition is a serious disagreement or argument, typically a protracted one.

Creek: 00:03:42

What is protracted?

Lindsey: 00:03:44

I feel like it's like to pull. To pull back.

Abram: 00:03:47

Yeah. Yeah.

Creek: 00:03:48

Lasting a long time or longer than expected or usual.

Abram: 00:03:55

Not at all what I thought the word meant.

Lindsey: 00:03:57

So a long disagreement or argument.

Abram: 00:04:02

Yeah, that makes sense. Especially when they, you know, when you think of, like countries who are in conflict. Right. The other way you have it described here is to be.

To be incompatible or at variance clash.

Creek: 00:04:20

All right, so before we get into this episode, just a few things to keep in mind.

Again, we'll say this every episode because we don't know if all y'all are listening through everything or just finding your type episode and listening, which is fine. You know, you do you. I'll just slightly judge you.

Maria Jose: 00:04:36

That's all.

Creek: 00:04:38

I'm talking to you, Terry. So as you're listening to these teachers, it is really hard to talk about type without leaning on some sort of stereotype.

So just kind of keep that in mind. These are data points, not actual for sure definitions of what it is to be this particular type. Also, we aren't.

The majority of schools are not really explaining subtype, how the instinctual bias and the type interact. So that makes it difficult as well. So there's a lot more variance to the type. So just kind of keep that in mind.

And then for the beginners out there, again, there's a lot of language here that you may or may not know. Feel free to reach out to us.

Again, lots of data in the show notes for you guys to process and just learn more about each of the schools as they talk. And then once again, don't just focus on other people. You know, as far as I know this person, they are a.

This just kind of let whatever hits you hit you see what is true about yourself in this as we talk about the Nine. So without further ado, here we go.

Abram: 00:06:08

Enneagram Institute.

Michael: 00:06:11

Okay, so type nine, often we call the peacemaker, easygoing, self effacing type. I think of sort of archetypes, personalities that sort of resonate with this.

Fred Rogers being laid back, easygoing, and unconditionally loving towards children. So nine often has a deeply compassionate heart, a heart of unconditional caring for people. When they're healthy.

They have the capacity to really, in a sense, bring an atmosphere of peaceful calm to situations. And we're fortunate to have a nine with us today who's been very quiet and laid back there. Seth.

But the capacity to really calm people down just as such an instinctual energy that they generate, that they can often do it without speaking a word. And I've had numerous people in my life who just emitted this kind of grounded Calmness that would settle people down who are really feeling rattled.

So they really create space for people just to land as they are.

I think of my beloved daughter as a type 9 and she has this capacity when there's a conflict to strike the one note that allows both the opposing forces to just settle and relax. And she's just a magician with it. So when they're healthy, they really bring a great calmness, caring, sharing.

And they also very powerful around just trying to bring out the best in people.

There's a way they really lift people up and when they start to get in trouble, when they lose contact with that sense of inner well being and wholeness and unity, they can then in a sense start to develop kind of a cover of peacefulness while underneath they're anxious and afraid and going into their fantasy life.

So their response to, you know, suffering, shame, hurt, anger, if it's not been digested, can be to in a sense put on like an invisibility cloak so you can't even see that they're there. There's a way that they're able to make sure you don't give them a hard time.

But when they're healthy, they're very engaged, very present in the midst of conflict or joy.

And the challenge for them I think is beginning to notice when I'm going along habitually with people as a way of protecting my own self and my wish to not have conflict. And going along with people is not a bad thing. Type Eights could probably learn a little bit more of that.

But it's when it becomes habitual as a protection for my fear of conflict that it really starts causing the type 9 to kind of go back even more into an introverted place. So you can't really see who they are or what they're about.

Gayle: 00:08:56

And nines also being in the body center, in the belly center, we often see that they have a kind of body intelligence. It's kind of their superpower in a way.

Maria Jose: 00:09:10

It's like they can be incredible bodyworkers.

Gayle: 00:09:12

For instance, massage therapists, also athletes, people who have just a kind of innate sense of their body and its movement.

Maria Jose: 00:09:24

In time and space.

Abram: 00:09:26

And I have to say, personally, like, I think all my best, you know.

Gayle: 00:09:29

Bodyworkers and massage people have been nines. They're very intuitive that way with their.

Abram: 00:09:36

The intelligence of the body that they have the narrative enneagram.

Terry: 00:09:43

So moving on to type nine at the top of the enneagram, our friends, friends, the mediators, Nines believe that in order to be loved and Accepted. You need to go along to get along. You need to blend in to the environment around you, your family, your friends.

Because somewhere along the way they got the sense that they were too much, that they were unimportant, that the way to have peace and harmony is kind of a mimic for the. The true connection of all things is this adapting, is this going along to get along. And nines are the most.

I mean, we all love to be around nines because they're non judgmental, they're kind, they can see all sides of things. They're adaptive, they're easygoing. I have the benefit of living with a beautiful man who leads with nine is does Christopher.

And so there's a sense of calm. He could. That when I first learned the Enneagram, actually thought, how can I find that calm in myself? So they bring this to all of us.

The challenge is anytime there's conflict, or I often say a difference of opinion with a nine is a conflict.

It's not just a difference of opinion because they can feel the kind of upset in the field and they want to keep it smooth, keep it peaceful, keep it harmonious, because that causes disruption in themselves. Their energy is out into others, and that's where they can feel the calmness and the harmony.

There's also a difficulty here in knowing their own priorities. They can look busy. In the early days of the Enneagram, it was like we thought nines were all kind of sleepy and slow.

But the truth of it is, nines can be focused on activities that are inessential. We talk about a busy nine. They can look really busy. But if the priority is to do something, they're doing everything else but the priority.

So an example would be someone who's got a paper to write, but the neighbor comes over and wants to have a cup of tea and oh, there's a lawn that needs to be mowed. And oh, there's this that happens. And they easily get taken away from their priorities and focus on the inessential.

It's really hard for the nine to put him, her, themselves as the priority. There's also this energetic sense of anger gone to sleep. We're at the top of the Enneagram. Anger is the emotion here, but that's really dangerous.

So it's difficult to say no. So instead, there can be kind of a stubbornness.

I remember on a panel years ago, I was leading a nine panel, and the example my panelist said was, I look like I'm going along, but I have an anchor in the water and I only know about the anchor, although we know about the anchor because we can feel this kind of resistance. But there's kind of a stubborn quality that can happen here in terms of the journey.

For the nine, it's really about bringing the energy that gets dispersed back into oneself and meeting whatever is here. And again, I hear David interviewing Anaya saying, comfort is not your friend.

It's like learning to tolerate the energy in one's own body in order to have a sense of this is who I am, which feels separating. The avoidance here is for nines is not wanting to be disconnected, to keep in the peace and harmony out here.

But the truth of it is to really connect, there needs to be a sense of self inside. Helen talks about nines needing to build a sense of self, which is harder for them than any of the other types.

But those who love nines want this sense of self to be there because then there's a solidity.

And for the nine themselves, it can lead to a sense of right action, what's important to me, what's my value, what's my purpose, and staying in that position and then having true connection, because you have a sense of self and there can be something to connect to, to the outside. So right action, it gives a sense of clarity. Things just unfold, and you can feel connected to yourself and then connected to others.

Abram: 00:14:53

Ata.

Maria Jose: 00:14:57

So type 9 is what we call striving to feel peaceful. And nines are usually easygoing and have this ability to make people feel comfortable around them. Most times.

They tend to be typically calm and pleasant and many times friendly. They have this ability to see how the people around them have fair or legitimate points of view.

They have this ability to agree with the people around them very easily and see the validity of their points of view. Therefore, they're good at building consensus, which comes in handy when they want to avoid conflict. They want to feel peaceful.

And many times that takes the shape of avoiding conflict, if possible. What they want is to maintain a sense of inner harmony, which gets disturbed when there's conflict around them.

So they will help ease that conflict as much as they can, or avoid it if it's just them and somebody else.

Mario: 00:16:15

That ability to be pleasant, to put people at ease, is really, you know, very notable.

And there's this, again, misperception in some of the enneagram world that nines are lazy and they're not, you know, they can't be successful and all this. And Ryoze and I have both worked with, you know, many leaders who are nines. Who are very successful people, very hardworking, very driven.

You know, we see that particularly with the transmitting nine. They can be very active and assertive people, but they do it in a way that's also striving to feel peaceful. This makes them really likable.

I think, you know, it's one of the more kind of likable types. You rarely hear people say, I can't stand that person. They might get frustrated with the nines, but they rarely find them unpleasant or unlikable.

Maria Jose: 00:17:10

Under stress, they may avoid things that disturb their inner calm. And that is very. I mean, that depends on who we're talking about. Because for me, disturbing my inner calm might be one thing, for you, Mario another.

And for a nine, they are more sensitive probably to those things, so their threshold is probably lower. And they avoid things like, I don't know, asserting themselves or drawing attention.

Or they might avoid conflict or just stating what they want, what they need. Just because they believe that those things will take them out of their inner calm might cause conflict. They might resist making decisions.

Because if I take it, if I make a decision now, it might get me into a conflict. So I prefer to postpone it or even take action.

Mario: 00:18:12

I think that one of the biggest challenges that nines face is the tendency to self deprecate, to minimize their accomplishments, minimize their needs, and then become very frustrated that their accomplishments aren't being recognized and that their needs aren't being addressed. So they can, in a sense, be their own worst enemy.

Particularly when they're under stress, they can withdraw even more and end up not only frustrating other people, but frustrating themselves and doing harm to themselves, either professionally by not asserting their achievements or personally by not standing up for what's important to them.

Maria Jose: 00:18:55

They might overlook sometimes the threats to their well being or success. They might be very active, as you said before.

But when it comes to things that are important to me, I might neglect taking action around those things. Which is interesting because you see them working and leading others with a strength that they do not apply sometimes to themselves.

Mario: 00:19:24

And I think that usually happens when they feel like what they want is in some way disruptive to or imposing upon somebody else. Right? So if I know you're not interested in that last piece of cake, I have no problem reaching out and grabbing it.

But if somewhere in my mind I'm thinking, yeah, well, maybe Maria Jose wants that cake.

If I'm a nine, I might even if you say to me, go ahead and take it, there's a part of me that's saying, no, no, No, I don't want to impose, and so forth. So that's really where it can be problematic for them.

Maria Jose: 00:20:02

It is interesting how transmitting nines are a bit different to what we typically think of.

When we think about nines and we see a nine that it's more assertive, that seems even more aggressive at times, especially when they're dealing with things, I don't know, around the work, around other people's interests, not necessarily about themselves. So it's hard to spot them when you don't have this distinction. But once you see it, you see that there's this pattern where they.

Or this ambivalence where they are assertive about certain things and humble or reluctant to fight for their own needs when it comes to certain relationships and certain people that they don't want to or they don't want to fight or damage the relationship or put it at risk.

Mario: 00:21:03

Yeah, I think the transmitting 9 is not really reflected in most of the Enneagram literature. And so they're often mistyped.

I mean, we often get people who are transmitting nines in our program who have been typed as a three or something, maybe an eight or whatever. And very often, I think feels the same way when somebody just feels off in some way. We start to think, could this be A transmitting 9?

Because it's one of those profiles where the instinctual bias and the strategy are in most conflict with each other.

Abram: 00:21:43

Well, here we go again. We're back with another human. Karen Burley is with us today representing what is the type today? It's nine, right?

Caryn: 00:21:54

Yes.

Abram: 00:21:55

Is that right, Karen?

Caryn: 00:21:56

Yeah, if it's nine, I'm in the right place.

Abram: 00:22:00

Good, good. Well, man, we are really, really grateful to have you on today to join us. And so we, we wanted to start by.

Well, first off, tell us just briefly about yourself. Where are you at? What do you do in the world?

Caryn: 00:22:14

Oh, gosh, my least favorite short question answer. Yeah, my name is Karen, I live in Portland, Oregon and I work with people. Using the Enneagram is kind of what I'm up to these days.

It's the shortest version.

Abram: 00:22:31

I like it. That's good. That's good.

Well, one thing we've been kicking off with is just some rapid fire questions to get to know how to help our listeners get to know the person, the human. So I'll start by asking the first one. The first question I have is it's kind of rapid fire.

I guess you could, you could really take it deep if you want to. But what's one belief you've changed your mind about in the past few years and what led to that shift dropping right in. I know, I know.

Caryn: 00:23:04

You fired rapidly. I might slow down the response, I guess taking it to be about myself since we're here to talk about me. Apparently. Yeah, definitely.

In the last few years I've changed my beliefs about how much people time is in service to me. I am, I don't know if it's rare, but I am very extroverted. And I've always seen myself as that my whole life.

And then to the last few years it's been like, oh, actually maybe being by myself. I'm having a different experience and different beliefs about being by myself. I'll say that.

Creek: 00:23:45

Okay. What is the correct way to make a peanut butter and jelly sandwich?

Caryn: 00:23:51

Lots of peanut butter, not a lot of jelly. Creamy peanut butter. The way to make it, you know, to.

Creek: 00:23:59

Well, what jelly?

Caryn: 00:24:01

Oh, you know, as a kid, as a kid I didn't like jelly so I would have straight up peanut butter sandwiches Now I guess I still don't love jelly. Jam is better for me. Now we have this like marionberry jam that I really like and then like a sourdough bread and creamy creamy peanut butter.

Creek: 00:24:25

Jif or Skippy.

Caryn: 00:24:27

You know, I don't know if branded it. We used to do Jif and then been doing this slightly better or more like. Like there's oils.

Lindsey: 00:24:38

Natural like no hydrogenated oils.

Caryn: 00:24:41

Yeah. But I don't know the brand.

Lindsey: 00:24:43

Have to keep it in the refrigerator.

Caryn: 00:24:45

No, we don't refrigerate it. My husband does all the shop all the grocery shopping. So I don't. Yeah.

Abram: 00:24:52

Could I ask real quick to back up, is there a difference between jam and jelly? I'm maybe exposing some gaps of knowledge at this point.

Caryn: 00:24:59

I wonder also I feel like it's a texture thing.

Lindsey: 00:25:02

Thank you for your courage.

Caryn: 00:25:03

I think jelly is more gelatinous. And jam, like I made jam once. It's just like the fruit and the, I don't know, juices of the fruit. That's all I got. I'm not an expert.

I was a straight up peanut butter kid. So I would also, I would do peanut butter sandwiches or peanut butter crackers just like Ritz crackers.

And peanut butter was like most of what my mom could get me.

Lindsey: 00:25:30

Like when the cracker breaks when you put the peanut butter on is like one of the most disappointing things in life. You know what I'm talking about? You're having a visceral reaction right now to that idea.

Caryn: 00:25:42

I can see it like very Crumbly. It's a whole crumbly experience. You know, I'm. Yeah, I'm someone who gets covered in crumbs and like, stuff all over my face easily.

Creek: 00:25:56

Jam is made with crushed up fruits and. Wait, no, is that the other way around? Hold on. Yeah, no, jam is made up with crushed up fruits and jelly is made with just the juice.

Caryn: 00:26:09

Yeah. Jelly is like a jello. Like jello. Consistent consistency. Whereas jam, you actually feel like you're eating fruit now.

Creek: 00:26:16

Riveting content right here. Wait, did we do all three? Wait, no, I. I didn't do. No, I did.

Mario: 00:26:24

Wow.

Creek: 00:26:25

Who's.

Abram: 00:26:25

Who's left? You.

Creek: 00:26:27

What?

Caryn: 00:26:28

Lindsay?

Lindsey: 00:26:29

No, I didn't do one.

Abram: 00:26:31

Yes.

Lindsey: 00:26:33

Okay. Karen, if you could be famous for something that you've never done before, what would it be like?

Caryn: 00:26:41

I've never done it at all.

Lindsey: 00:26:43

You never done it at all.

Caryn: 00:26:47

Oh my gosh.

Creek: 00:26:48

That's anxiety producing for me.

Caryn: 00:26:53

Well, it's funny. I'm like in this place right now of being like, if I could try stuff, like, what would I even do?

Because as a kid I was always like, what's the one thing I'm secretly good at that I haven't ever done? But I haven't found it. So, yeah, maybe some sort of like art that I've never. That I've never done. I always. I.

Another belief I'm really actively working on changing is like, that I'm not creative. So there's something in there. Oh, oh, okay. Actually, I got it. I got it.

Lindsey: 00:27:27

She's got it. She's got it.

Caryn: 00:27:29

This is actually a goal for me in the next year is to do an open mic, like, stand up set, like a three minute set. And I've never done it, but I would love to kill and be famous for a second about that.

Lindsey: 00:27:45

Wow, that'd be great. Maybe. Guys, can we do like a three minute podcast episode when she's ready and it can just be her debut. We can support her in that way.

Well, making her dream come true.

Abram: 00:27:59

Do you have just a joke you could tell?

Caryn: 00:28:00

Oh, God, I'm working on it. Actually, my opener has something to do with microphones. So you got, you know, you got a little bit of it.

Lindsey: 00:28:09

Okay.

Creek: 00:28:09

Amazing.

Lindsey: 00:28:10

We're on our way.

Caryn: 00:28:10

But context is very important. I've been. I went to comedy Outside this summer and it's like way harder to be funny in different spaces. And I think that includes on podcasts.

Creek: 00:28:23

Interesting. Yeah.

Caryn: 00:28:24

So, no, I will not.

Lindsey: 00:28:26

I do like being Celebrate your.

Caryn: 00:28:28

No, thank you. I do. I enjoy, you know, making PEOPLE laugh so hopefully you'll get a taste of that without a formal joke.

Creek: 00:28:37

That's great. All right, so let's jump into some Enneagram stuff. Can you tell us, like, what's your story as far as discovering this pattern of personality?

What did that feel like? What was that process like?

Caryn: 00:28:53

Yeah, well, somebody told me I was a 6 at some point, and it didn't really do anything for me.

And then, like, three years later, I was listening to a comedy podcast, and somebody was talking about the Enneagram and how she uses it with her therapist and how helpful it was for her. And I was literally, like, driving to therapy, listening. Get out, go into therapy. And my therapist was like, there's this thing called the Enneagram.

Like, are you interested? And at the time, I was in graduate school, getting my master's in social work, and I was really trying to.

I mean, I've always been really introspective, but, you know, now looking at it, I was trying to figure out what was wrong with me, because nobody would tell me, like, what. Like, everyone's like, you seem fine. You seem great. You seem, like, friendly and whatever. And I'm like, there's gotta be something.

And so I was in therapy, and my therapist brought it in, and. And she just. She read a few adjectives of a few of the types.

She started with two, and I related to, like, I was like, yeah, two thirds of those probably, you know, feel fine. I was like, someone told me I was a 6, and she read some adjectives, and I was like, sure, yeah, like, half of those. And I.

And then my disappointment set it in. I'm like, this isn't gonna help. You know, I never know how to answer these questions. Like.

And then she read the nine ones, and I was like, oh, yeah, that's what's happening in me, like, my whole life. And so it was. It was kind of one of those, like, gut punch things.

And I hadn't been exposed to a lot of, like, I didn't know other people's types or anything really about the system. So I'm grateful now, having been in the Enneagram world for a while. Like, that. That was my experience. There was somebody there.

We got to go deeper together. And it just started really helping me open doors that I hadn't. I hadn't had language for. I hadn't thought to ask in certain ways.

And then being like, oh, what's going on in my relationships and with my family and all of that, and I just got hooked, you know, I just Started learning as best I could on my own, like listening to things, reading things. And after a couple of years of that, I finally went to an in person, like a one day workshop.

And it was somebody who had been through the narrative training and so he mentioned that could be a next step. And so then I did the whole narrative enneagram training. And then I also trained some with Russ Hudson and lots of different pieces.

f my journey. And that was in: 2017

Creek: 00:31:47

Did you. Did you ever consider. I know you said you thought about six for a second. Were there any other types since kind of that discovery of nine, you know.

Caryn: 00:31:56

I never doubted the core nine. It just felt pretty clear. I've definitely felt like, tried to listen. I have a lot of six in me. I know that. Um, but it never.

I never doubted the core type. The instinct is another. Is another thing.

Abram: 00:32:16

But yeah, I'm curious about what those words, those adjectives you even said that your therapist was naming.

Because what we wanted to get into next, something we've been asking each of the humans we've had on in your position, was to give us five words that you would use to describe how you conceptualize yourself. Who. Who is it that you think you are? And. And put it into five different words.

And actually, because you got into it, if you could name adjectives that are not you, because you did say not creative. And I think there was one before that too that you're trying to lean into to figure out if that could be true of you.

So I'd love to hear some of that too.

Caryn: 00:32:57

Yeah. Historically, it's been a lot of that's not me. That's not me like anything. I'm like, well, no, that's not really me.

Abram: 00:33:08

I resonate as well as a nine with that.

Caryn: 00:33:11

So, yeah, yeah, there is a certain amount of not wanting to. Not knowing how to be located or, you know, pigeonholed.

And yet, yeah, in uncovering a lot, realizing how narrow I am, I am holding myself less consciously. You know, I wish I remembered those words. I think. And maybe this is a very nine thing as well.

Like it was more of like a right time, right place, right energy situation where I really trusted. Well, I mean, my therapist wasn't putting it on me, but I felt safe in that container. And to just be like, oh, you're.

There's something here that I felt. Yeah. So you all gave me a heads up on this and it was hard. And so here's what I came up with. The first one Is warm.

I think there's just a warmth that feels like me. Okay, I'm not going to over explain. You can ask, follow up. I got warm, relational, introspective, stubborn, and multifaceted.

And I feel like, yeah, multifaceted. I'm like, I can't catch. Catch them all. So let me put that one in there.

Creek: 00:34:26

I love it.

Caryn: 00:34:30

I was the kid, like, wishing for more wishes in those riddles, you know, I'm like, it's never going to be complete. And that's like, that's hard for me. So I'm like, how do I open it up more and more? So open. Almost made the list.

I wanted to include stubborn because I think there's a way of, like, this positivity bias of being like, I am all these wonderful things and that's not the full story. And that feels important to me to have like the roundedness.

Lindsey: 00:34:59

Well, that's what I was.

That's what lifted for me too, is when you said stubborn, the first thought was like, oh, I love that she included something that a lot of times we think is a negative attribute of people, that she included this in her list of adjectives. So, like, what's. I thought you included it. Cause you thought it was a positive thing?

Caryn: 00:35:19

No, but.

Lindsey: 00:35:22

No. So you don't see stubbornness as like a positive character trait?

Caryn: 00:35:29

I am learning to embrace the parts of myself that I don't like to own.

And I think, especially in my closest relationships, this has been a huge gift and challenge and lesson in the last few years, especially of allowing myself to see myself in ways that aren't so warm and loving and kind. And it. It honestly feels freeing in a certain way because I can see more how I'm like, no, I'm so agreeable and open and like, I'll.

I'll accommodate and all of that. And that totally happens like that. That happens a lot.

But to get underneath and be like, oh, my gosh, I have a death grip on certain things and it's not the first thing I see in myself, but it does feel more core to my honest way of being than just all the other stuff.

Lindsey: 00:36:37

Yeah. Wow.

Abram: 00:36:39

Yeah.

Lindsey: 00:36:39

Because I'm feeling myself go, okay, let's reframe this. This is like, how can stubbornness be positive? Like, channel that energy for good or whatever.

But I love that I'm hearing you say, like, there's a reality that you're accepting. It doesn't have to be negative. It's just, this is a part of me and I get to love all of Me. So I like. Yeah, thanks for that. I like that.

Caryn: 00:37:01

I think there are some people who are stubborn and see it as positive, but, yeah, that's not my relationship to it. It's just. It is more of the like. And I'm sure it's a device of my ego, too, of being like.

If I can just be humble and admit it, then we can connect more.

There is this way that I want to get underneath layers of being closed off to even looking at things that way, which I guess is the opposite of stubborn. But then to be really honest and be like, ugh, I want things to be a certain way sometimes.

And I get really disappointed and I get really locked down when. Usually when I don't realize how much expectation I have.

Abram: 00:37:40

Yeah, I just want to name something about that, too. I do think there's actually a stubbornness about letting go of stubbornness too early.

Caryn: 00:37:49

Yes.

Abram: 00:37:50

For nines in that. I just think it's safer right to. It seemed like that resonated with you, what I just said. What. What hit you.

Caryn: 00:38:03

Yeah.

Only the people that I really trust my connection with get to see me kind of double down on what feels like so petty or so small or there's a way that I want to be able to dismiss a lot of things.

And so when something really gets to me and I wish it didn't, it takes a lot of safety in my connection with somebody to be like, I'm having a hard time with letting go of this.

Abram: 00:38:40

I really resonate. And I.

The way that I have language it for myself is that I just say that sometimes I reconcile things too early when there's something for me to feel here.

Caryn: 00:38:49

Absolutely.

Abram: 00:38:50

And it did bother me. Yeah. And I need to not be stubborn about the fact that it did.

Caryn: 00:38:55

I don't know if this resonates with you, but there's also. And maybe it's a worker on. Another way of reconciling.

Something that has served me, though, is caring about being a role model around feeling things with people or being honest about the not so savory parts of myself or whatever. Especially, you know, putting my voice out there somewhere or being in front of people in the narrative.

Like, you sit on panels and to be witnessed and be like, I'm not gonna. I'm not gonna do the mask thing to the best of my ability because I want us all to mask less.

And so there is this kind of, like, thing that I think can also get overdone where I'm like, look at me being so authentic and like, whatever. There's like a righteousness to that.

Maria Jose: 00:39:53

So.

Caryn: 00:39:54

And it's layered. And I think that's like so much of what I've learned in my. In my experience is like the ego just gets more sophisticated.

I'm not going to get underneath it for very long.

Creek: 00:40:08

What's so important about people knowing that you're multifaceted?

Caryn: 00:40:13

Yeah.

So being able to witness how my personality plays out in a range of relationships, it feels like, and it's felt like this since I was little, that different people have really different experiences of me. And that's been hard for me to reconcile who I am or for you to ask, who are you? Because it's like, well, it depends. Like, who are you asking?

What are the circumstances? And I'm so curious, like, stubbornly fixated sometimes on, like, what is my essence, like, what is my energy without all of that.

And then also knowing I'm in relationship. I'm like, in the world. And I can't fully separate, which is also, you know, this challenging split for me as a nine.

And so I've felt really unseen at times when somebody has one perspective of me, but it doesn't feel complete or it doesn't feel honoring of some other aspects of me.

And so that's been a source of a lot of frustration for me in life, especially as I've had to make choices for myself about how to live my own life, which has not been an easy thing for me at all. And so I think there is just this kind of irritation of.

Let me gear up and assert that there is more to me than just like being friendly or being nice or, you know, whatever feels so surface level.

Abram: 00:41:47

I resonate with that and just want to put it in my language too, because I think it could be helpful is that to see one part of me feels like you're negating other parts of me. Even if I do feel seen in that one way, it just still feels like you're. But you're not seeing all of me. So don't zero in too much on that one thing.

Even though I do feel safe.

Caryn: 00:42:05

Yeah, it's a slippery thing. And it. I'm like. I get to see more how it is difficult for people. I have folks in my world who talk about the push pull of the nine.

It's like, come close and see me, but, like, not quite like that, you know? And there's this weird, like, slipperiness that again, I don't always see because I think I'm being so open to connection. That's what I want.

But it is. It's like, so narrow what I want to be seen for and how it has to include everything all at once or else it's not good enough somehow.

Abram: 00:42:46

Yeah. And that displays for me then into one other question is, like, what happens for you when people don't see you as warm?

Caryn: 00:42:54

Yeah, well, I don't know that. Let me sit with that. Yeah.

I was talking with my husband about this last night because of this kind of way that I do feel like I can be polarizing to some people and then other people will be like, how could anyone, like, see you differently than whatever they see in me? I get excited and energized at times, and I can get really kind of intense and almost intrusive.

I've learned how the merge can feel intrusive, especially when there's, like, energy behind it. And I'm not that used to, like, holding the charge in my body. And so it feels really exciting when it's there and I'm clumsy with it.

And so I can come away from experiences being like, oh, crap, I was overwhelming. I was taking up so much space, or I was really trying to get something out of somebody. And it's.

There's kind of a shame response that happens after the fact for me of just being really sensitive to, like, oh, no, did I not show up how I wanted to or how I think I should have, or in this kind of, like, balanced way or spiritual way? Or does it make me lack integrity in what I think I'm trying to be in the world? And there can be a pretty intense after effect, and it's.

It's less about how other people actually may have seen me, and it's more of an internal process. So there's some aspect of, like, you know, I want people to like me more. I want people to feel comfortable around me.

I want people to be willing to share themselves with me. But I go real internal in that after process of, like.

And maybe it's, you know, partly my one wing as well, but there's like, a harshness to, like, that wasn't the way I wanted to have been. And then this kind of urgency of, like, and I'm never going to be in that situation again.

Or like, what if that, like, ruins an opportunity to connect with people in the long term? Or, you know, what if it closes doors, things like that.

Lindsey: 00:45:31

I like what's coming up here because I feel as you're talking, I'm going, oh, that sounds so 4ish. Oh, that sounds so 2ish. Oh, it's like, wow, but you're a 9. And I think that that's part of the multifaceted aspect.

It's also sometimes the way our Ennea brains get taught to function, which is to just keep sticking each other back in our boxes. Well, like, oh, you're sounding so heart type right now, Karen. Like, oh, you're talking about shame.

Oh, you're talking about your image, you know, and so I wonder if you can just speak to that a little bit about how I almost said 9 ISM. Can we say that 9 ISM kind of expresses for you?

Or maybe what I'm saying you've noticed too, like, oh, that's not a classical description of a nihilist.

What that feels like with you, how you sit with that, how you hold all those pieces together and call it nine ness, but also just call it Karen, you know? Does that make sense?

Caryn: 00:46:35

Yeah. I thought of this little analogy. So I don't spell my name the way that a lot of people named Karen spell their name.

So when someone says, I'm Karen someone else, I don't assume that we have the same name. I'm like, we have different names. And I feel similarly with like, my nineness.

If someone's like, I'm a nine, I, like, don't assume that we are going to be super similar. And I've seen in spaces, they'll be like, oh, nines. I love being around other nines. And we're all going to be so warm and sweet.

And I don't know if it's the work that I've done or just who I am or whatever, but that is more triggering to me than anything because of kind of what we've been talking about of like, this isn't about pigeonholing us.

And I'm so interested in the inner work aspect of the Enneagram because that's what feels useful to me and that's what feels exciting about there being these doorways and these pathways to find what we wouldn't normally think to find in ourselves. And so staying on the surface with it feels like it will activate my anger and I will also shut down some because it will also cloud my own.

Like, I feel clear saying this here now, I think, among you all and just in my own space and all of that. But I'm really affected by other people's skepticism, other people's, like, feelings and opinions and stuff.

And so it can be really hard to, like, find my voice in that. And so when somebody's like, oh, I know about the Enneagram, oh my gosh, I'm a nine. Two. We're probably so similar, blah, blah, blah.

I'm just like, we're not even talking about the same thing and I don't know how to have this conversation. And I kind of go blank. So it. It's this whole reaction there. I don't know if Seth Abram, you are giving a little look about that.

Abram: 00:48:52

No, I. There's a. There's been a striking amount of similarities or things that I have resonated with in your. In your experience as well. Doing the. The.

I forget how Lindsay said it, but nineness or nine isms. Yes, I resonate with some of those.

Caryn: 00:49:09

Well. And I've learned a lot.

So my husband is a self pres 3 and we've gone through a lot in the last year and one of the huge learnings has been really, what is the difference between like heart and body and how we're reacting, how we're perceiving. And literally this morning he was like, you seem distracted. You seem disconnected. Like, he's perceiving me and he's so perceptive.

He's perceiving me on this emotional level that I struggle to access. I want to think that I can really be in my heart and I can at times, but it is a different energetic thing. And with the image stuff, like, again, I.

It's not even about the other people. Like, it's about like my body starts to feel overwhelmed or like starts to have this like, what I was calling shame.

Like, is this more like crawling out of my skin feeling of like. And maybe shame is not even the right word. It's like I don't. I don't know how to be. And then I'm getting.

I'm trying to pick up signals from other people about how they're perceiving me. And I actually don't feel like I'm very good at that. Like, I sometimes need people to be like.

Like my husband will be like, you are getting really in that person. Like you are getting really loud. Like you are getting really whatever. Like, and it's in a sweet way.

But like, I will lose that when I'm in a body energy, when I have a lot of energy moving through me. It's like I can't manage my image very well.

Creek: 00:50:58

I'm curious what's a caution or a piece of advice that you feel that you have learned with your particular perspective, your particular pattern sharing with nines. But really anyone that like, if you could kind of see this thing in a particular way, this would revolutionize how.

Caryn: 00:51:21

You operate Something One of my teachers keeps telling me is whatever you want, whatever you think you want is too small for you. And I've had such a hard time naming what I want at all.

I think this coincides with the stubbornness that sometimes if I do feel clear on what I want, I really struggle to let go of that and let it actually come to me in a way that is something I maybe couldn't have imagined. And so there's this. I think there's a lot of nuance to the nine that I'm learning about how it operates in me.

And I'm sure it can be different based on a lot of things, even for other nines.

But these kind of layers of letting these aspects of myself that want something really badly or feel out of control or feel revved up and angry, let myself not be overly identified with those even though they feel so hard to find that sometimes I want to be like, finally it's here.

This is me just continuing to let go and being like that, that's also a part of me and it may want or need expression and it doesn't mean that's my essence or I found it or I have an answer. There is a real part of me that wants answers and I think that's a very body type thing. I'm like, I want to get it, I want to know it.

I want to be right about something and to just continually let it be an exploration. And I think that gets me into my heart more.

It's the mystery, it's the being even more imaginative, being even more exploratory in an open hearted way is actually a lot of work for me.

Lindsey: 00:53:18

Karen, what's a habit that you have developed hard earned, fought for, hard won, that you just feel like it's really drastically changed the way that you approach your life.

Caryn: 00:53:37

Like a good habit, like an intentional habit? That's a good question. I guess maybe habit is a strong word. I'm still working on it. But shifting practice. Yes.

Lindsey: 00:54:00

Is that a better word?

Caryn: 00:54:03

Shifting my attention to my body regularly.

I can tell the difference first thing in the morning if I pick up my phone or if even just being in my head, like feeling far away from the present moment, reality. It's like feet on the floor, finding my breath, engaging my body. I danced this morning.

I do some movements most mornings and letting myself kind of feel my core and allow myself to be, to exist. I. I know it sounds so silly with non enneagram people, but it's like just even fully like, getting that I exist is a practice.

Abram: 00:54:55

Karen, I just want to say thank you for sharing openly and honestly with us a little bit about what it's like on. In your interior landscape. I've personally really enjoyed it. And, you know, we're.

I think we're all in a lot of ways different in our sameness, but especially around nineness, I've just, I've really resonated and felt some mutuality with that. So thanks for sharing that. And I, I've sensed from this from you before, but I just wanted to name it again. Your.

Your, I don't know, openness and curiosity and willingness to. To keep growing. I really picked up on that again in this conversation. So I love it.

Especially what you said about whatever is too small or whatever you want is too small for you.

I think that's especially a very, very, very, very valuable thing for nines to hear because we think what we want is so massive and it's like, in comparison to a lot of other people that's this big. And yeah, I just, I think of like, how, when I ask that question, how big of a life can I live?

I always have to go, okay, take that times 100, you know, and then I'm going to be actually growing and then there's going to be some real things in my life that are meaningful. So I just, I loved it. And so thanks for. Thanks for coming on. Where can people come and hear you do your first comedy routine?

Caryn: 00:56:18

Yeah, some dive bar in Portland, probably. I won't be inviting very many people. No, I, I want to just thank you for saying that and credit.

You know, Marion Gilbert is one of my teachers and she's the one who keeps bringing me back to that and patience at the same time.

And the other piece around what I want, what I would love for people to take away, is like, allowing yourself to also go at the pace of your actual body. Not some contrived pace or expected pace, but I think, you know, when you're talking about, oh, what I want feels so big.

I'll set a tiny goal and then be like, well, I didn't even do that, so I can't possibly have more. But to really, like, honor and celebrate the ways that I am growing and the ways that I'm open to growing and then like, let it.

Let it be really good. Like, let things get really good. Yeah, I appreciate it.

I think I was drawn to you, Seth, even just listening on the podcast before we ever met, because I think there's a lot of stuff that you will say or put out there. That resonates. So I'm just really appreciative for that and for all of you being curious about me.

I think one of the things I've really learned through the Enneagram and kind of like panel style stuff is like, it feels so good and healing to have a lot of space to share about myself and to not feel like I have to demand it or wait a really long time for it. So to be invited in and to have such, like, kind attention has felt really sweet. And I'm grateful for your questions.

Creek: 00:58:00

Well, our pleasure.

Abram: 00:58:01

Where can people actually find you, though? Because I don't know if we need.

Lindsey: 00:58:03

Yeah. And like, maybe there's another podcast that they can hear you on. Wink, wink.

Caryn: 00:58:09

Yeah. So I have a couple podcast projects.

I did a podcast with a friend of mine, also trained in the narrative called the Enneagram Typecast a few years ago now. And then I have a podcast with Marion Gilbert talking about the Somatic Enneagram called the Somatic Enneagram podcast.

And then depending on if I can accomplish goals and. And things like that, I have a new one that hopefully one day will exist in the world. I have a name for it, but maybe I'll sit tight that.

But KarenBurley.com has all my stuff and.

Creek: 00:58:48

We'Ll have all that in the show notes. Thanks again. We really appreciate you showing up.

Caryn: 00:58:53

Thanks so much.

Abram: 00:58:58

Type.

Caryn: 00:58:59

Talk.

Abram: 00:58:59

Movie.

Caryn: 00:58:59

Talk about the type.

Abram: 00:59:03

Well, that was a conversation.

Creek: 00:59:09

It's literally what a podcast is, my friend.

Abram: 00:59:13

Oh, man.

Creek: 00:59:15

Well, that was the thing that we're doing right now.

Lindsey: 00:59:17

Well, this is a podcast, isn't it?

Abram: 00:59:22

We did it. We did the night we had a conversation with a lovely nine.

Creek: 00:59:27

Yes.

Lindsey: 00:59:28

Karen was great. I enjoyed that a lot.

Abram: 00:59:30

Yeah, she's. I think she's very insightful and she's done a lot of work.

And I think as a person that can bring out some unique flavors and characteristics of nineness and like, growth path and. Yeah, she's. She's really great.

Creek: 00:59:47

Let's start off. Let's start off with doing the schools. So what did we. What did you guys notice as you listened to the different schools? Describe the nine?

Abram: 00:59:56

I think I kind of. I think I named this in the last episode with eight. But I really do appreciate the thing that the institute does.

The distinction they make between when a person with their type structure is present, the capacity for the true or the healthier version of the gift is. Is. Is what comes out. Whereas when you're losing presences, when you're trying to more so manufacture the faux version.

You know, for example, for nine, I think they were talking about just the. How, you know, faux peace is avoidance. Basically. It feels like peace, right. For the nine, but it's not real peace. And that's when you're losing.

When you're losing presence, as Michael was saying. Yeah, I really appreciate that from them.

Lindsey: 01:00:49

Yeah, I was really struck by how I think this is going to be a pattern that I see or maybe I'm just going to be participating in confirmation bias, I don't know.

But I think that awareness to actions description of the nine had a lot more to do with how nines get in their own way and how to connect with their desires so that they can take effective action in their life and they can actually move their lives in the direction that they want to go. I sensed that narrative and institute were more. Their descriptors were more. Are more like what it feels to be a nine or be around a nine.

So that was a difference that I noticed. And I noticed that they were all talking. I think this really clicked with me.

Hell, I hadn't given a lot of attention to the impact of nines on other people.

And hearing all of the schools describe the ways that nines have a calming effect on other people, I was like, ooh, thinking about the nines in my life. And I would really love it if you didn't yawn while I was talking about this. I feel offended. She said to the nine in the room.

Abram: 01:02:08

And let me be clear, that's not because of my nineness. I'm actually tired. I didn't get very much sleep last night.

Creek: 01:02:13

And why was that?

Abram: 01:02:15

Because Crete got in at midnight, that's why.

Creek: 01:02:19

It was more like 1:00.

Abram: 01:02:21

I didn't even look at the clock. Okay.

Lindsey: 01:02:23

And for the listener, yes, they are together in the same building. I am missing out on being with my co host and I'm not happy about it. But anyways, back to what I was saying about nights.

They have a calming effect, except for when they're yawning in your face while you're talking. Yeah, you want to be the stereotype?

Creek: 01:02:53

We should talk about that next.

Lindsey: 01:02:55

Yeah, we should. We should. And then I'll affirm everything I know to actually be true about you.

So I think I just, you know, learning this literature about nines, I was just thinking about what the internal experience of a 9 is and wanting to feel peaceful on the inside, but just neglecting to give them that honor of having such a wonderful impact on other People, I think it's a really, really special gift. I just want to appreciate it.

Abram: 01:03:25

I agree. I think we're a gift to the world.

And this is the funny thing too, because a lot of nines train so many people to overlook them inadvertently when we do start showing our significance, people are like, I don't like this. Stop it.

Lindsey: 01:03:42

Because now I don't feel calm in your.

Abram: 01:03:44

Exactly. Exactly. When it.

Lindsey: 01:03:46

Maybe it wasn't a double edged sword.

Abram: 01:03:47

It is. It's absolutely because I'm changing my relationship with you when I start to own my significant significance.

And you've got to change your relationship with me is what that means too. Sorry, man, but. Yeah.

Creek: 01:03:59

Why are you talking to me though?

Abram: 01:04:01

Not you.

Lindsey: 01:04:02

C word conflict.

Abram: 01:04:05

Well, well, let me, let me say too though, like, yes, absolutely, there's a calming presence about us. And that is why I think, I think that's because I could be wrong.

But most nines that I know, including absolutely myself, because I know myself best, is that we are very accepting of other people. And when you're accepting of other people, I think that's something other people intuit from us.

And that is why people like call me their best friend. And I'm like, you don't know me though. That's just because I'm good at listening, because I don't voice what's important to me.

And you feel understood and seen and accepted. But the thing is about that is, again, that's a one sided relationship. But I think you feel calm around me because I'm letting you be yourself.

I'm accepting you as you are. The funny thing is that the gift we give to other people is that the thing we're the worst of giving ourselves.

And so that acceptance of myself is what is the hardest thing I think for a lot of nines, anyway. Oh, I was going to say you were. Lindsay, you were alluding to. Sorry I'm having to speak up here, y'all, because this is the nine.

Creek: 01:05:27

So it's kind of annoying, actually.

Abram: 01:05:28

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

But you were saying this the first time around, I think, and I was, I was wanting to just mention that a lot of the nine's peace is largely contingent on not disturbing other people. So as long as you are okay, then I am okay. My peace is heavily influenced by how I've affected you or not.

And so if I'm not here, then you're more likely to be okay.

Creek: 01:06:02

So it can seem on some level selfless and.

Abram: 01:06:06

Exactly.

Creek: 01:06:07

You know, but it's really just, just, just don't disrupt me.

Abram: 01:06:10

It's actually. It's no self.

Creek: 01:06:13

Well, yeah, yeah, yeah.

And I've also heard it said of like this is probably more on the immature side of things, but just like, can I just make you feel okay so you leave me alone and I can continue doing my thing?

Abram: 01:06:28

Yeah.

Creek: 01:06:31

Yeah. I thought it was really interesting. I mean all the schools, again, there wasn't a lot of difference. There's a lot of.

In the minor things, there were some differences in how they would. What sort of aspects they're looking for in a person that has nine. And so like the whole easygoing, easier to go along then get, get, get along.

Go along something. I don't remember that phrase.

Abram: 01:06:59

Yeah, go along to get along, to get along.

Creek: 01:07:03

So that. That was there. I really appreciate it. I liked the imagery. I guess it's very appropriate for fathoms.

But Terry was saying something like a nine has the anchor. Has an anchor in the water that no one knows about. Like it looks like I'm going, but I'm like dragging my feet and only.

Lindsey: 01:07:24

I know about the anchor is what she says.

Creek: 01:07:27

And a lot of unproductive doing where it looks like I'm doing things, but it's not actually benefiting or it's just looking busy without being intentional about the work that's happening.

Abram: 01:07:43

Yeah, definitely. That's the opposite of why people mistake laziness that language for nines.

Because avoidance for nines isn't just simply not being here or laying down. Avoidance for a lot of nines is a lot of effort and it makes me.

Creek: 01:08:02

And let's. I guess we can talk about this in conjunction with the interview with Karen.

As I was listening and I'm not saying one way or the other and as we've disclaimer in the other episodes, we did not vet these people to quote unquote, make sure they're typed correctly. So you know, that being said, they are self diagnosing with their school of thought with the information they have available, yada, yada, yada.

But as I was listening to her, I'm like, man, there's a bunch of horror stuff in here that I do relate with like the, the push, pull and the sort of not wanting to be pinned down. Karen was talking about like her. One of her adjectives is multifaceted and it's like.

And I think you said in the interview something along the lines of like people will see an aspect of you. And it's like, yeah, that's me, but that's. But I have other things too, right? I get that too, I think, but it's just.

It's coming from a completely different angle. But I can share later, but I'd like to hear.

Abram: 01:09:07

Yeah, I think talk about that a little bit more, at least from this nine, if that is about. I think in. In typing in general, for. For.

For people coming to the Enneagram, people that are nines, it is easier to see yourself in all the other numbers than the nineness, because we can be so dispersed and only know certain aspects of ourselves through the embodiment of other people or through. Or who we're around.

So, like I used to say when I was younger, like, I'm only as strong or as wise or as cool or as kind as the people I surround myself with that hold those characteristics on my own. I'm not.

Creek: 01:09:46

You must be a big loser, man.

Abram: 01:09:52

But that said, like, to. To label me one thing feels like you're discounting all. All of the other things. I am.

Because that's the tricky thing of nineness is I want to be all of all of the things. And so that's where ambiguousness comes from, because in the process of trying to be all of it, I'm none of it.

Creek: 01:10:16

How does being all of it serve you?

Abram: 01:10:20

It feels like you get.

It feels like everything's being honored, like you're not devaluing another part that's just as valuable, even though actually in the process, you're devaluing yourself. I will do that all day for other people. You know, nines will do that for, like, if you're in a group. I want make.

I want to make sure everybody's heard, but to the. You know, to the exclusion of my own voice. Yeah, so in the same. The same idea, like, if.

If not every part is included in me too, though, then it feels like you. You're only seeing a part of me and you're limiting me. And. And that feels actually unjust, actually, like you don't. You don't really know me. And so.

Creek: 01:11:08

But then you add, like, the. Like the navigating piece to your experience. And there's also something about navigating, and I think the other schools would.

Would probably include this as well in the social category of not sharing everything all the time, like having pieces of yourself to give to other people, but certain people don't get everything. You're just kind of. You're in some ways controlling a narrative of. Of who you are to different people, what roles you inhabit.

Where do you see that delineation between nine and navigating? More social.

Abram: 01:11:48

Yeah, I mean, I think even. I mean, I think it's a human thing that we withhold parts of ourselves we don't believe will belong in certain environments or around certain people.

And I think then you bring that in with nineness, then it's like. Well, nineness doesn't usually allow for anger or opinions. Strong opinions. Yeah. So I think some of it is like how I. Withholding parts of myself to.

To belong to the group and how I fit into my unique position supporting the whole versus doesn't matter where I'm at. If I'm alone or with other people, there's still just parts of me that maybe aren't allowed.

That's actually more based in what was too much for somebody else growing up that I don't allow myself to have access to. Now. I don't know if that made any sense.

Lindsey: 01:12:44

I still also still hear foreishness in that. So I do want to keep pressing on that.

Creek: 01:12:53

From. From my angle, there's. It's less about. I need you to affirm all the different parts of me. I think it's. And I've said this before, like I'm. I'm not.

I'm not afraid of you disagreeing with me or I have more feelings around being misunderstood than having a disagreement about something that we both understand about me or about something else. Because to me, that's. That's. That's a distinction. You know, that's a. That's a uniqueness. So the constant distinction that I am making.

And you both have expressed mild frustration because you can never quite pin me down on certain things. And it's not because I'm trying to necessarily hold all the options like Abram does. It's more like, no, there's more here. There's more here.

There's more. This distinction. There's more this distinction. It's like, yeah, but it's a lot of yes and yes and no, but.

Abram: 01:13:59

Right.

Creek: 01:14:01

And so it's. It's more about distinction than it is about completion.

Abram: 01:14:06

Yeah.

Creek: 01:14:07

Alliteration.

Lindsey: 01:14:08

Oh, sure.

Abram: 01:14:11

That makes a lot of sense. Yeah. Because. Because if you. If you too early, too quickly find the completion, then you haven't seen the distinction. I think that is a thing for.

For nineness that maybe clarifies even more.

The distinction you're looking for as a four Greek is there's a early reconciling, a too early reconciling because this feels uncomfortable where I haven't. There's. There's less that we're going into anything distinct. It's more just a. A wall of nothing or a wall of everything. Or that.

Yeah, it could be either way.

Creek: 01:14:51

Well, the overdone foreigners on that is.

And this happens in my art is I'm really great at tearing things down and finding the distinctions and the ways in which it's lacking and all these other things. So I never actually. I frustrate myself because I tear things down before they're actually built.

And so having a stance on something, I'll have strong opinions, but I can quickly dismantle them because I see how they're lacking. Where nines. Well, Seth, why don't you just speak to that? Because I know you have something to say.

Abram: 01:15:32

Well, what's interesting is I know there's a tendency for foreigners to go as deep into something as possible to mine all of it. Where it's more of like the directional. Where nine just wants to have all of it. But I mean, I can. I'm not saying I'm not deep. I'm definitely deep.

Right. But. But there's more. It's more this direction. You know what I mean? Like, I can.

Lindsey: 01:15:59

That's what I was wondering when I was listening to you guys talk is like, would you say nines are like breadth and fours are like depth?

Abram: 01:16:07

I will say either. Either way, whatever we say from this, this is what I think it actually means.

And I know there's a lot of misunderstanding around this and you do have to be careful. But what it means to be doing.

Repressed as a 4 and a 9 because I'm repressing my own ability to do what's important for me based around my own significance and the need to go so deep into something, you'd never come out of it, to actually act on it.

Creek: 01:16:35

There's. I have. I have issues with that language, but I also see something. Here we go.

Lindsey: 01:16:43

Let's do it.

Creek: 01:16:43

Dismantling the whole thing. But no, I won't, because I think there's something interesting about that.

Abram: 01:16:49

I don't want to be valuing that too.

Creek: 01:16:51

Yeah, this is. I don't want to get too deep into that because I don't want this just to be a 4:9 comparison on the nine episodes.

Abram: 01:17:01

But yeah, this is my episode pitch.

Creek: 01:17:03

I think. I think this is important because as a. As it highlights the different.

The same action or the same sense, the same experience that we have, whether internally or externally, how someone experiences us can look radically similar.

Abram: 01:17:23

Yeah.

Creek: 01:17:24

Even like the push pull of nineness, especially in the transmitting 9 or the sexual 9 of. What was the phrase Mario used the other day the reflected spotlight or something.

Abram: 01:17:39

Yeah. Nines rely on a reflected spotlight. It's like an indirect recognition seeking, like.

Creek: 01:17:47

See me, but don't see me.

Abram: 01:17:51

I don't want to be the one that said I'm cool. I want to do the thing. Then you need to say it.

Creek: 01:17:57

Well, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Abram: 01:18:01

And then I'll be like, did you. Did you see the cool thing? I did. Can you say it at least? But I'm not going to actually ask you to. I'm not going to say it. Yeah.

Lindsey: 01:18:10

So I have a backlog of thoughts we're going to reach back a second to, and you're not going to start a new idea until I get through all of these. Are we clear on the rules?

Creek: 01:18:23

Yes.

Abram: 01:18:24

Yes.

Creek: 01:18:25

Yes, Mom.

Lindsey: 01:18:26

Okay. Shut up. Okay. Can we go back to the anchor real quick?

Abram: 01:18:33

Yeah.

Lindsey: 01:18:35

I just want to ask one question about that. Do you have people in your life who see and call out the anchor, even though maybe they don't use that language? But what is.

What does it feel like for you when people do that? Well. And when they do, don't do that? Well, does that question make sense?

Abram: 01:18:59

I think so. Are you actually asking me? Yeah. I mean, I think the anchor is stubbornness to see my own value. It's the. It's the dragging.

The anchor that's being dragged is because I have something in opposition to you, but I'm not willing to name it out loud. And that's the inner stubbornness that can come out as passive aggression. If it does come out, the anger.

Creek: 01:19:32

Is there. Maybe we need to come up a little bit, because that is not immediately clear to me how that works itself out into dragging your feet to do something.

The procrastination or doing everything else other than the thing you should be doing.

Abram: 01:19:51

I can tie it to that. I mean, it's. Because it's for a couple of reasons.

For one, it requires a lot of effort to actually do a hard thing and to gain the motivation to accomplish a long thing, you have to sustain motivation, and you have to sustain intrinsic motivation, which is about finding out what I'm capable of and what's valuable to me and who I want to become. And that is a really hard thing for a 9 to embrace about themselves, that they have something important that they want to put in the world.

And so that requires so much effort and courage because, well, what if I don't have what it takes to pull that off and to become fully amazing and embodied and whatever in the world? You know, what if I Don't. I'd rather not find out.

I've talked about this before, but that even just the potential of that rejection of that version of me, or that not working out or the disappointment of it, me not being able to pull it off is just too much. I'd rather not. So that is. That's the procrastination. And that can be. That can be for massive goals or simple.

I just don't want to do that thing that's been put off for so long. It's a small thing, but it's still, to me, a stubbornness to find the capacity inside myself that I do have to do it.

Lindsey: 01:21:16

I'm sure that maybe at some point in your life, someone's been like, oh, you're so stubborn, or something. And that's unhelpful. Right. But what is it.

What is it like to feel seen in that space of stubbornness and known and held and someone to sit to name it in a way that feels like loving and helpful? Does that make sense?

Abram: 01:21:37

Yeah. I mean, I think there has to be some.

Doesn't have to be completely always across the board, but I think it's important to have some level of willingness to see it as that. 9. If someone's approaching you like to already have that kind of framework. I want to have. I already have somewhat of a growth mindset, if you will.

But yeah, to me, it's like when I've experienced somebody helping me see I'm dragging an anchor of stubbornness toward knowing what's important to me or valuing myself enough to make a big accomplishment or procrastinating or whatever. It's like they're meeting me in the thing behind the thing. Like, there's fear there, actually.

There is sadness, actually, and there's loneliness there. They're meeting me in those harder, softer emotions because I'm afraid I don't have what it takes.

And I'm afraid I'm sad that I have forgotten about myself for so long and my value and suppressed my importance in front of everybody for so long. So when somebody can meet your intrinsic.

Lindsey: 01:22:57

Significance is how I've heard.

Abram: 01:22:59

So when somebody meets me in that first and then challenges me or invites me to engage something, then I'm more like likely to do it or. I remember being on a panel years ago and someone asking me about, you know. You know, the classic in.

I think it's in the blue book, the your presence matters language or the childhood book. Yeah.

Lindsey: 01:23:28

Is the Wisdom of the Enneagram by Riso and Hudson.

Abram: 01:23:34

There's The. The lost childhood messages. There's those lost childhood messages that are, I think, semi popular within the Enneagram world.

And one of them for the nine, it's your voice matters. And so I just heard people all the time just, oh, well, I can just tell that to a nine. No, you really can't. It doesn't work.

It's, like, in one ear and out the other. Like, if I don't already have an experience of knowing that's true, it's not going to build on anything. It doesn't help.

If anything, it actually keeps perpetuating and sustaining my stubbornness against knowing that about myself. No, it's not true. Don't say that. I'm not purposely doing that.

But the way that you actually help someone I know their voice is impactful and powerful and important and significant is you notice in the moment when they are having impact in and when they are making someone else significant and showing someone else that they are loved and accepted for who they are, because only a person that has significance can give that to someone else. And from that, when you help that nine see that, that's when I can receive it.

Creek: 01:24:44

And, yeah, I think we're blind to that, and I think that that is true across the board. Like, someone had people be like, oh, yeah, but you are special. And, like, got. Shut up.

I'm remembering a time, I guess I'm going to pat myself on the back a little bit, where, like, right after Seth was on a massive podcast, he's like. He's like, man, it went so well. And I just. It just. I'm walking down there, like, I just really want to have an impact in the world. A voice in this.

I'm like, dude, what did you just do? You were on one of the biggest podcasts out there, sharing your voice with thousands of people, and you're still missing it.

Abram: 01:25:30

Yeah. And I was like, oh, yeah.

Lindsey: 01:25:34

Okay.

Creek: 01:25:35

Yeah, this is. This is how the brain works, right? You have enough stories telling you something opposite, regardless, until someone calls out.

Like, if someone's like, hey, for me, like, look at what. This is really unique. This is really special. Not. Not just saying the words is not going to fix anything.

It's like, show me where I'm not seeing the thing that I am programmed not to see.

Abram: 01:26:01

Yep.

Creek: 01:26:02

Anything else, Lindsay? Or can we. Can we.

Lindsey: 01:26:05

No, I have to.

Abram: 01:26:10

Sh.

Lindsey: 01:26:17

Yeah. So connection. I heard Karen talk about connection a lot.

I know in the ATA model for twos, they say striving to feel connected, but in other traditions, the word connection is used so much with nines and with fours too. But I just. I find that to be a point of potential confusion.

And also I think we need to talk about how twos and nines do connection differently or what. What they need from connection or what they're seeking. I'm curious if you have any thoughts on that.

I have some thoughts as I have explored the lens of 2ness a lot over the last eight years.

Creek: 01:27:02

I think one thing is just the merging. The nine merging can feel or seem like connection. And like.

Seth, what you were just saying, if people feel like they're your best friend and that's their experience of you, but that's not necessarily true.

Abram: 01:27:22

Connection is two parties sharing in the experience of one another and a lot of connection for the assumed connection people get from unaware, unawake, whatever. However you want to describe this Nineness, faux peace foe, whatever is one sided connection. You're. You're actually like.

It's almost like what we call. It's like a feedback loop. You're just listening to yourself because I'm just mirroring back to you. You.

And I haven't contributed myself at all in this. It's not. You're disconnecting to yourself is actually that's why people feel seen. But I've not contributed myself yet into this connection. That's.

That's what's missing. So it's, It's. That's one kind of like unhealthy when you don't carry. When you don't hold nineness.

Well, the kind of connection, like a faux connection from. From. Yeah, from that kind of nineness.

Lindsey: 01:28:21

Yeah. See, and your use of the word merging I feel like confuses me more because Sandra Maitre and Almas both talk about twos in terms of merging.

Creek: 01:28:36

I guess how I would differentiate that is two's fake version of connection is projecting their own needs and wants on the other person and need them to affirm to fulfill that need of connection. So it's kind of the opposite.

The flip of the nine where the person interacting with the nine is actually just interacting with themselves and the two interacting with another. They're kind of interacting with themselves but putting their own needs, wants and desires on the other person. I'm just kind of spitballing there.

I think. I think that that feels accurate to me. There might be some nuance in there.

Abram: 01:29:21

But yeah, there are still some distinguishing differences. Or, or.

Creek: 01:29:26

Oh sure.

Abram: 01:29:27

Like there is a distinction between two people with the way A2 would merge and the way A9 would merge with a person. Right. Um, like there is. There's a loss of a person when it comes to merging. For the Nine. It's what Terry was talking about. Talking.

Actually, she was talking about how Helen describes nineness as a dispersing of energy. When to. To not be here is to be completely dispersed and to. You're like. You're in connection with.

Lindsey: 01:30:06

Is it like for a 9, the merging feels like relief at. At disappearing or relief at being able to disappear into another person. And for A2, the merging feels like I find myself in this other person.

Abram: 01:30:22

It's interesting.

Creek: 01:30:24

I. I wouldn't say. I wouldn't say. I mean, you can correct me, Seth, but I would. I wouldn't say it's a relief necessarily.

Maybe sometimes it is, but sometimes being not a person takes a lot of effort. And holding things back that you know are going to disrupt the conversation is.

Abram: 01:30:45

Not comfortable if you're not very practiced at it or if you've. If you become aware that how practiced are you are at it. Actually, I should say.

Creek: 01:30:55

But even if you are practiced at, you know, that sort of thing, I think it's still regardless.

I mean, we've all been in situations where we've had to pretend we are something else or we think a particular way in order to just kind of get through a situation. I mean, so many. Everyone has done that.

And even if you're aware of it and you're conscious of it, it still takes a lot of effort and it's not comfortable. I know for me, when I feel like I have to bend a little bit to be less authentic, what I feel is authentic, that doesn't feel good.

But it's also like. But I'm. I'm doing it for a particular reason, to get a particular result. Even though. Does that make sense?

Abram: 01:31:39

Yeah. Well. And. Yeah. And I think another way to describe it. I wonder if we can get at this even more. More.

But like the merging for the nine or merging for the two is like I have no needs, but there's still a person here. Whereas the merging for a Nine is there's no needs and no person here. And it's not. It's less a relief because depending on.

Now, this is where I do like the Institute's perspective on this. Depending on how aware you are and how healthy you are, and it is. It can be a.

Then this is where push, pull, I actually think comes in sometimes for Nineness is I realize how merged I've been and I don't like it because I am my own separate person and I need Autonomy. And when I realized I've been swallowed whole for a while, I need you to back off and I need to get away from this. I need to find myself again.

Creek: 01:32:48

And I think all the types do their own version of push and pull.

Abram: 01:32:50

Yeah, yeah.

Creek: 01:32:51

But it is definitely. Yeah. Comes back to motivation. I, I think.

And this is the importance of, you know, this is a very brief overview and we're kind of talking in the weeds here for, and some of the beginners may, may be lost, I don't know. But like this is the importance of going to an actual school so you can engage more of the nuance. You can ask your questions in person.

You can do all those things.

Like it's stereotype will happen if you just rely on BuzzFeed and Instagram, you know, and, or even this podcast, you know, we can't, we, we're trying to nuance it as best we can, but at the end of the day, getting proper schooling and training from one of these schools or another school out there that you connect with more. Amazing. That's, that's, that's what's necessary to kind of get a vibe of type. You can't memorize a list of traits. It will work against you.

You just have to keep engaging it, keep finding the distinctions, you know, and hold it loosely all at the same time.

Abram: 01:34:05

Well, there's, I'll just say, I think there's, There's a stereotype around nineness.

When I yawned and that was called out, that was like reinforcing that stereotype in that nines are soft and meek and quiet and line little and opinionless and you can walk all over them. And the fact is, is this is really dependent on how well a person holds the type, how well how, what their relationship is with that.

Because you can, if you meet me, especially depending on the day, like you're not going to walk all over me, me, you, I will tell you to watch, to back the, you know, up. I will, I will, I will. You know, I know what, I know what's going on, what's important to me.

I, I can, you know, so it really, really, really is dependent on the person and how that person holds their nineness.

So I just think yawning like reinforces like this misunderstanding of laziness or, or not doing much or, or yeah, all those stereotypes that are not true.

Now it can come into play because of how the 9 structure is held or how it's structured or it's set up, but it's just not true of every person who does nine because people yawn to make them a nine.

Creek: 01:35:35

Right.

Lindsey: 01:35:37

I do think it's important though, if you are a nine, to notice that, oh, I've slipped. I've slipped out of this space. And maybe it's because of what you were saying before, I'm afraid to contribute to it.

Abram: 01:35:51

Yeah. At the same time, tiredness can be an expression of suppressing something because there is work.

It does require effort to push down beach ball underwater. It requires even more effort actually than it. Than something important to you to be expressed. So tiredness can come from that.

It can be a factor of nineness. But it's just not only that.

Lindsey: 01:36:21

It can be a moment to get.

Creek: 01:36:23

Curious about as I work through typing different people and that sort of thing like that is a data point, you know, not. Yeah, listener, please hear that. As this does not mean you are nine.

But there's a certain talking style that is the best word I have for it is not like non. I want to say lazy, but it's. It's nonchalant at all times or the majority of the time.

So there is a data point, a speaking style, but that doesn't mean that they are relaxed or unopinionated or any of the things.

Abram: 01:37:06

It's just for sure. And when you expect a person to always be that way, then you get upset when they're not. That's what we were talking about earlier.

Then you allow yourself to keep seeing them only in that box and then you won't ever be surprised or won't be able to see when they are doing something different.

Creek: 01:37:26

One thing, I think it was Terry who said this of for nines, different equals or difference equals conflict was.

Abram: 01:37:36

That sounds right.

Creek: 01:37:38

Yeah. Differences. A difference in opinion is conflict, I guess. Do you resonate with that, Seth?

Abram: 01:37:45

Yeah, that's the thing is it's. It's what one of the stereotypes is that all conflict nines always, always run from all conflict. Like, wow, it's not true. It's not true.

Because what does that mean for you? What does that mean for the 50 unique, different nines that have different experiences? What is peace and what is conflictual for you?

What makes something conflictual is your unique difference that could be in opposition to someone else's difference is actually what's conflictual. What you have to actually contextualize what, what is conflictual for the nine for every nine. It's not all conflict because that. Some stuff doesn't.

Doesn't bother me. It's about what is specifically sensitive to me.

Creek: 01:38:35

I think I disagree.

Abram: 01:38:38

Whatever.

Creek: 01:38:42

Feeling like some conflict.

Abram: 01:38:44

So we have been kind of finishing each of the type episodes with a. Just a quote that kind of feels like it encapsulates that experience for those.

For that person who does that type and wanted to share that for the nine here. And actually I wanted to because this is my. My number. And I feel like we got a little more freedom when we're on our type.

I'm just going to say that now.

Creek: 01:39:09

He has 15 quotes.

Abram: 01:39:10

No, I only have two. And I want to share the reason that there's two. So the first one is. It feels a little too on the nose. It's from David White. It's beautiful. But it's.

It's a. It's not enough for me. It's. You are not here to disappear into the world, but to bring harmony through the fullness of your voice and being.

This is great. That's beautiful. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And the one that I. That I like actually even better. Yeah, check.

The one that I like, though, even better is from Anais Nin, who said, and the day came when the risk to remain tight in a bud was more painful than the risk to bloom. That, I think, is what a nine, a person who doesn't have the most conscious or healthy relationship with their nineness needs to hear.

Because hopefully, actually there will come a day when the protections of the past or the way in which you use faux peace to make your way in the world through avoiding will just. You know, you just can't.

You can't do that anymore because what you want has finally surfaced enough that you want it bad enough that you are willing to risk. It actually makes me emotional.

You are willing to risk finding out if you have significance, and that's going to mean other people aren't going to like it, and you're going to have to feel the discomfort of other people disagreeing with you and not liking you and not accepting you. You have to risk. You have to risk. Otherwise you're actually not going to experience the real peace that you've been looking for all along.

Creek: 01:40:56

Yeah. When the. The pain of not doing something is greater than the pain of doing something is. I mean, hopefully we don't always have to get to that point.

Abram: 01:41:08

But I don't know if there's. Yeah, I don't know if there's other ways. I think it's richer. Roar. That said, through great suffering or great love. But there.

But both of those, I think, are include discomfort, receptivity to something uncomfortable, and.

Lindsey: 01:41:30

You'Re in a season of doing that. Right now, aren't you?

Abram: 01:41:32

I mean, I've been in a long season of doing that, but yeah. Another one for sure.

Lindsey: 01:41:36

Yeah. Good for you. Good for you. We're really proud of you.

Abram: 01:41:40

Thank you.

Lindsey: 01:41:42

Sure. May or may not be. I am.

Creek: 01:41:48

He's doing great. Seth is a cool person. Cool things.

Abram: 01:41:53

I didn't have to say it. That's correct.

Lindsey: 01:41:54

He's so cool. He is so cool.

Abram: 01:41:57

That's the thing is, you know, you're working with a decently healthier person who holds their nine as well.

When they can talk about themselves confidently like, you know, they have some accomplishments and they're okay with voicing them without having to self deprecate immediately afterward. I'm awesome, right?

Creek: 01:42:18

All right.

Abram: 01:42:19

I think. I think I did it.

Creek: 01:42:20

There's accomplishment amnesia with nines.

Abram: 01:42:24

Yeah. I hope one day I'll have a voice, you know, on a podcast.

Creek: 01:42:29

Yeah, one day. All right, so final thing, and as always, we like to end with something a little bit more practical. And what'd you have?

Lindsey: 01:42:40

I've been enjoying the essential Enneagram practices and we'll have this in the show notes too, but it's worth taking a look at the practices for what he calls the mediator or the type 9.

Pay particular attention to how much your attention and energy are pulled by and then dispersed into the many claims made upon you, leading to indecisiveness and over accommodation.

So he specifically pointing out paying attention to where your attention is going, where your energy is going, and then he gives specific practices like this one.

Each day I will make a conscious effort to place my attention on what is important to me and to use my energy for my own priorities despite the discomfort or conflict that might arise from doing this. So there's some like even mantras in here that I think would be helpful.

And I will say in my own work with my, my Enneagram clients, when I encounter a nine, one thing we end up talking. And it's always good for, for all the types to think about their values.

But for nines especially, I find that there's not a lot of time that's been spent on articulating my values. Here's what matters to me. Here's what's important to me.

So having some skills around and maybe going through that process with a coach or somebody of here's what my values are. I can articulate them, I can write them down, I can put them where I can see them every day.

And just developing this awareness around here's what I know I value and what's important to me, I think would be really helpful.

Creek: 01:44:14

One thing for me would be, so a mindset thing is act like I wrote down, trust your impact. But trust can be a little bit ambiguous.

Abram: 01:44:25

So.

Creek: 01:44:25

So I like defining trust as acting as if. So acting as if you have impact.

So even if you don't believe you have impact, just imagine, like, what would someone who has impact, what would that feel like? How would they go about doing that? And then being intentional about investing in other people.

So you can see whether it's kids or, you know, a friend or, you know, soup kitchen or something, like involving yourself in something where you can tangibly see that you are impacting someone and making sure you're making note of that because you will miss it and not minimizing that sort of impact that you're having.

Abram: 01:45:12

Yeah, I mean, those are all great. And I think. I think another one is just noticing your tendency to forget yourself, especially in light.

And when you're with other people and you're choosing to go along with somebody else. A lot of times we know there's an internal no when we've said yes outside.

And then checking in with yourself regularly then, because that is what brings up anger. When you consistently or. Or consecutively or repeatedly suppress something. That's what it means to suppress a need right there.

When I could have said, no, I don't like that, or no, I don't want to do that. That's a need that you're suppressing because it's something important to you that you didn't voice. So that's where anger comes from. My nine friends.

And then that's when you can ask yourself, what am I feeling right now? Well, I'm angry. I'm angry because I didn't voice myself. Well, I can still voice myself, and I can let that anger that's. That's right there.

Maybe I'll have a little bit more contact with. Help me. Give me the energy to say, hey, you know what? This is really uncomfortable for me. I know that I said I would do that or I'll go or I don't.

I like that thing that you said. But actually, I don't. I don't. Sorry.

Creek: 01:46:37

And I think it's important to note that you don't.

Abram: 01:46:43

In.

Creek: 01:46:44

In these practical examples, you don't have to do all of them all at once everywhere.

So maybe voicing your opinion, you choose one area of your life with one person that you practice this with and retrain your brain that this is not gonna. I'm not gonna die if I. If I express my opinions. And with that, we've reached the end of nine. Thank you folks for coming along on the journey.

Please just reach out with questions with comments. We would love to know if this is at all useful to you. I mean, if you want. I'm trying to channel my inner nine, but it's not working.

Abram: 01:47:35

It's just about putting pillows on both sides of the conversation.

Creek: 01:47:38

I mean, if you want to reach out, if it's not too much of a difficulty, I mean, I can drive to your house if you want to have a conversation.

Abram: 01:47:46

Yeah, I can go all the way to you, you know. Yeah, it's not a big deal.

Creek: 01:47:49

Do you need a foot massage?

Lindsey: 01:47:50

You can run me over with your.

Abram: 01:47:51

Phone.

Creek: 01:47:54

You know, I'll like. Okay. So also a reminder membership portal. We really would love to interact with you more. You have private Facebook group.

We have a private podcast feed that we are posting bonus content, exclusive content, early releases, meditations, that sort of thing, as well as some some possible events, some like live zoom events where you can interact with us or maybe even some of the teachers that you heard on the show today.

Lindsey: 01:48:35

So not possible. It is happening. Those things are happening.

Creek: 01:48:40

You know, you got to leave some.

Lindsey: 01:48:41

Mystery.

Creek: 01:48:44

So you can find all that stuff in the show notes below. But once again, thank you and we'll see you in a couple weeks. Thanks for listening to Fathoms in Enneagram podcast.

If this episode affected you in some way, we'd love it if you would share it with a friend or family member. Don't forget to check out the show notes for ways to connect with us and continue your serious work as as an unserious human.