The Grand Finale: Reflections on Season Five of Fathoms

Creek: 00:00:02

Welcome to the finale episode of season five, my people.

Abram: 00:00:07

Welcome.

Creek: 00:00:08

We did it. To the promised land.

Lee: 00:00:10

We did it.

Lindsey: 00:00:12

High fives. Virtual high fives, boys.

Creek: 00:00:14

Virtual high fives.

Abram: 00:00:18

That was in the high five sound.

Lindsey: 00:00:23

In the Fathoms graphic novel. It is the high five sound. Chapow. Shapow. We should do that. We should have a graphic novel.

Abram: 00:00:35

Oh, boy.

Creek: 00:00:36

How graphic? We talking, like, child appropriate or PG 13?

Lindsey: 00:00:41

Yeah, maybe 13. The villain is ego.

Creek: 00:00:49

Thought we decided essence was the ego.

Lindsey: 00:00:52

The villain.

Creek: 00:00:53

Yeah.

Abram: 00:00:55

It starts off, though, and then you find out it's actually your friend. Yeah.

Lindsey: 00:00:58

Plot twist.

Creek: 00:00:59

There we go. There we go. And Essence becomes the villain.

Lindsey: 00:01:02

Classic.

Creek: 00:01:03

Classic.

Abram: 00:01:04

Man, it's gonna be like Inception.

Creek: 00:01:06

So this is actually our second time recording this part of the finale. We thought we were done, and then the Internet decided to get in our way.

Abram: 00:01:15

Mainly mine.

Creek: 00:01:16

So, yeah, you all will never hear the brilliance that came out that first time.

Lindsey: 00:01:22

It was amazing. It was gonna change Abram.

Abram: 00:01:26

Yeah. I did something I've never done. I just. I blew my own self away. Everyone was crying.

Lindsey: 00:01:36

We were. We were all crying.

Creek: 00:01:38

World peace was attained for 40 minutes. Yes. So we're. We're not even gonna try to do that again because that just feels. Feels wrong. So here we go. We're gonna jump in.

Lindsay, we talked about in the intro how this whole season was your idea. What do you have to say for yourself?

Abram: 00:01:57

But then I said, no, no, it was mine. It was my idea.

Lindsey: 00:02:01

Oh, yeah. It was Abram's idea.

Abram: 00:02:03

Yeah. And then I. And then I gave it back because that really wasn't mine.

Lindsey: 00:02:07

I gave it back. Yeah. I'm sorry, guys. I'm sorry. In true Lindsay fashion, I thought it'd.

Creek: 00:02:16

Be easy or fun or fun.

Lindsey: 00:02:19

You know, what would be a great idea?

Creek: 00:02:20

It was neither. Um.

Lindsey: 00:02:24

I did not adequately count the cost, but it was worth it. I stand behind that. It was, man. It was great. I. I'm really proud of what we did. I've been very pleasantly. Pleasantly pleased. Pleased.

I've been very pleased with the. The feedback that I've gotten about the season so far.

And we set out to create a resource that was gonna really be useful for hopefully years and years to come, and also to capture history and this moment in time, specifically, as we look forward to, you know, what. What could be and what the future holds for this community. And, yeah, I think we nailed it.

Lee: 00:03:17

Toot, toot, too.

Lindsey: 00:03:19

Shooting our own horns, people.

Creek: 00:03:21

Really did. We've gotten a lot of really great feedback, as you said, and I think it just sounded like a Fun, important idea to do.

And I remember we had discussions near the beginning of, like, just kind of terrified, what if we put all this work into it and people are like, yeah, it's all right.

Lindsey: 00:03:38

All right.

Creek: 00:03:40

Or like people being offended that, you know, we talked about this thing, but we didn't talk about this thing, or we have our own personal opinions about what works for us and what doesn't.

Lindsey: 00:03:49

Well, that happened too.

Creek: 00:03:51

Yeah.

Lindsey: 00:03:52

There was plenty of offense.

Creek: 00:03:55

You must have been sheltering us from the offense. Oh, I don't remember these things, but.

Lindsey: 00:03:59

Well, plenty is an exaggeration, I would say. There was a few people that were, you know, concerned. Concerned, Concerned citizens. Disappointed, wanted other things and other people included.

Abram: 00:04:13

Yeah. Abram, was there a specific question that was asked?

Lindsey: 00:04:17

Well, I have a question.

Creek: 00:04:19

Speak.

Lindsey: 00:04:19

Yeah. What's the feedback you've gotten on season five?

Abram: 00:04:22

I mean, I think we've probably seen similar feedback and I've had a few people just mention that it was really helpful to recognize what we set out to do to help people see that there's a lot of people tend to just get into one school and not know that they're, you know, just thinking from one perspective. And so people were found a lot of value in recognizing, oh, there's at least, if not more variations or schools of thought around the enneagram. And.

And so it. What I think it did really well and. Or is it okay if we. We allude to what we're going to talk about next because we already know we did it.

Lee: 00:05:02

Yeah.

Lindsey: 00:05:02

Yeah.

Abram: 00:05:03

What it. What it.

What I, What I heard from people was that we talk about in the next recording, the second half of this with, with Lee, this, this concept of individuation and what, what these three different schools of thought helped people do.

What I probably heard the most consistently, I guess is kind of a similar thread line was that people were able to think for themselves about the school of thought, which is exactly what individuation is. You begin to think for yourself so that you can start living what is true for you.

And when you give people options and when you help them think critically, that is. That's a beautiful thing. And I. And I think that's what I heard a thread line for. So that was a.

If, if, if anything that is really, really valuable and really beneficial for the whole point of this, this season. Yeah, Lindsey's great.

Lindsey: 00:05:53

There was an underlying. I'm so. Just moved. So moving. Not actually just sweating. It's just really, really hot in this room right now. Yeah.

One of the underlying goals that we had was to demonstrate, not as some types of gurus, but just to lead by example what it looks like to hold multiple models loosely and with honor and respect for different perspectives while also thinking critically. And so in the feedback that I got, I heard that in the feedback, you know, nobody was dogging this model over that model, or I just felt incensed.

Sort of a loosening of the grip, even for people who had been in a model or learned one particular model and been in that for years, to just say, oh, huh? Like, I didn't realize there were other ways to approach this tool. And we love to see that.

That's like a huge part of our ethos here, is holding things loosely and asking really great questions. And so, yeah, I was really excited to hear that perpetuated in the feedback.

Abram: 00:07:12

Yeah.

Creek: 00:07:12

Yeah.

Abram: 00:07:13

And I think another thing about what we did with this season, maybe inadvertently and maybe there was some intentionality to it too, I guess, but. But I have this kind of working theory that I'm investing in right now of how people come to.

They do middle school, they do high school, they do college, and then just culturally, there's this misconception that growing is done. You now are a fixed adult. This is who you are the rest of your life. And.

And so I think so much division, so much problematic, whatever in the world is because of a lack of maturity, a lack of continued development and growth. And one way to understand, I think, what. What maturity is is a capacity to hold complexity.

And so I think, in a sense, what we really did well with this season was helping people hold complexity, to be able to start again thinking for themselves, but to think on a level. On a more mature level with how to hold the Enneagram, because you're having to decipher between difference and become more nuanced in your thinking.

And I guess, really just think critically.

But, yeah, I really think another aspect of this season was just helping people become more mature in how they hold what it is, whatever the Enneagram is, because of the different options and the different ways we were giving people agency to choose between different. Different kinds of thinking around it.

Creek: 00:08:56

An invitation to grow up, how we come to know and learn things.

Abram: 00:09:02

Yeah, definitely.

Creek: 00:09:04

And I want to reemphasize how, again, just how grateful we were to all the teachers, to all our humans that showed up and represented who they are and who they. How they identify their, you know, type and subtype. And all the time, all the effort, just really, really grateful to all of you out there.

If you are listening and we have. We have some. Some fun stuff coming up in this episode, of course, with Lee, but also there's some.

There's some bonus stuff that's going to be dropping as well to kind of. As a. Yeah, just. Just, you know, stay tuned. Just stay tuned. That's. That's all I'm going to say about that.

So what I'd like to do right now is kind of transition.

Lindsey: 00:09:54

I will stay tuned because I don't know what you're talking about either.

Abram: 00:09:58

I'm soon. What is this bonus stuff? Bonus content is we get to hear all the old classic Disney movies read in all of Creek's voices.

Lee: 00:10:14

Yes.

Lindsey: 00:10:16

I would pay for that.

Abram: 00:10:18

Would you?

Lindsey: 00:10:19

Yeah.

Creek: 00:10:19

You would actually.

Lee: 00:10:20

You would.

Creek: 00:10:23

Why did I question that? So this episode is obviously last episode, the two parter about growth.

The most important thing, I think the most important episode of the season about growth. Because if you're not doing anything with the Enneagram, then it's useless and a waste of time. Growth is the most important thing.

But how do we do it better? How do we do it with more clarity, with more precision, encapsulating, more nuance and flexibility of the humans that are trying to do the growth?

I am curious for you all. Okay.

Abram: 00:11:10

Okay.

Creek: 00:11:11

Lindsay, you just, like, flexed your bicep.

Lindsey: 00:11:15

Duh.

Creek: 00:11:16

You reached out and was like, there's a nice little line going up. Come on.

Lindsey: 00:11:20

I can't help it. I'm just living my life. Life out here and being incredibly strong.

Creek: 00:11:29

I was just reaching vacuum cleaners up the stairs.

Lindsey: 00:11:32

I was just reaching for a notepad. So you take notes.

Abram: 00:11:37

I mean, I gotta say, though, lifting vacuum cleaners up the stairs was a bit patriarchal because she.

Lindsey: 00:11:46

No, I literally told him. I was like, I just carried a vacuum cleaner with one arm up the stairs. Like, I've never.

I've always had to pick up the vacuum cleaner and hold it against my body to get it up the stairs. And I was just like. I was like, what am I doing?

Creek: 00:12:04

Lindsay is swollen.

Abram: 00:12:07

What do you got, Creek? Show us yours.

Creek: 00:12:09

What? No. No.

Lindsey: 00:12:11

Yeah, let's take turns. Sun's out. Guns out.

Abram: 00:12:15

Oh, I just. My whole head got lost in those. Holy cow.

Lindsey: 00:12:23

Your turn, Abram.

Creek: 00:12:28

Hey.

Abram: 00:12:31

All right.

Creek: 00:12:32

Good job, squad.

Lindsey: 00:12:34

We're also big Huberman fans.

Abram: 00:12:36

If we all take care of ourselves, which is really great.

Creek: 00:12:39

We do. It's really great.

Abram: 00:12:40

Good job.

Creek: 00:12:42

What I'd like to do next is let's talk a little bit about kind of your. What you found to be the overarching theme. The things that you Took away from this season, maybe.

What surprised you from the beginning, Lindsay, I've heard you talk about that on first approach.

Like, when you listen to all the different schools, there's really not much difference until you start digging into kind of, in some ways, the first principles of why they're saying what they're saying, or the outworking of how they delineate how they talk about things. What is growth for, you know, what is spirituality, all those sort of things.

And so on the surface level, I think that's why people just don't see the differences. And they just. It's just different language saying the same thing, but it's not right. And I think what, at least for me, it's been.

It's been back to those. The. The basic assumptions we make about what it is to be human, to grow, to evolve, to become, are the differences.

And it just gets more and more subtler the more you get more to the surface of teaching these things. But it's in the actual work with a human that you start to discover the friction points of the different models.

Lindsey: 00:14:17

Yeah, on the surface, it seems like.

And I think you can hear this if you go back and listen to the season, they will even use the same words to describe behaviors or what's being expressed. And so on the surface, it can look like, well, they're just saying the same things. But they actually.

The models actually disagree on what's motivating each type. I think that that was really surprising to me and worth paying attention to, because there.

There were some models that said, you know, type whatever is motivated by this thing. And then another model would say, we don't. We don't see it that way. We think it's actually motivated by something different. And then when you're.

I think that's all really, really important to. To pay attention to when you're working with people, because then you have to.

You have the hard work of deciding, like, which model am I using as I'm working with this person? Am I looking for this motivation, or am I looking for this motivation? And then even as we've talked.

Talked before, the different ways that the models approach confirming what a type is and the process of going through that, asking different questions.

You know, the ATA model, for example, is focused on falsifying instead of confirming, whereas the other models tend to, at least in my understanding, look for categories to check the boxes and confirm as you type. So some differences there. I wasn't expecting to kind of see those things.

Creek: 00:15:48

I think. Yeah, even as basic as is a Type based in avoiding something or trying to get something or maintain something. And when it comes to growth, is it.

Is it chasing after something or avoiding something? Like what. What is the most. What's the best way of growing? And. And that's.

That's going to depend on the model and the person and all that other stuff and. And your assumptions about what being a human is about.

So, yeah, I know I keep coming back to the kind of that statement, and perhaps a little too deep for most people to enjoy talking about, but I think it's just. It is important and we need to be more moving forward. I think the schools and people that are teaching need to be more clear about that.

If you're going to teach this thing, you need to be aware of what your assumptions are about, what it is to be human.

Abram: 00:16:49

Or, you know, stick with the easy way out and just keep doing the, you know, the simplistic version where you think you know everything about people because, you know, they're type.

Creek: 00:17:09

Wow, quality.

Lindsey: 00:17:10

I think you can make more money that way.

Lee: 00:17:12

Oh.

Creek: 00:17:13

Yep. Oh, boop.

Lindsey: 00:17:17

She went there.

Abram: 00:17:18

She did. Oh, man. What I was thinking was, you know, I initially was expecting what we got, you know, professionalism and expertise, which, you know, they all.

You can. You can very clearly hear, you know, they've all been doing this for quite a while, which was great to hear. Which was really.

It was a reminder for me.

And I think I literally said this or named this a few different times throughout the season, but these teachers are old school teachers for the most part, and to me, that means they have a level of expertise that I don't think a lot of teachers, more modern or just younger ones really do. And there was so much value in that for me. They just have so much experience. And that was. Yeah, I just. That's something I noticed.

That's something I was expecting, and I was just grateful that we did get to experience that.

Although it was interesting to kind of hear people try to communicate the type on a pot in a podcast, you know, setting, rather than just a teaching format. That was. I think a lot of that magic was tweaked through your efforts, Creek.

But that was a fun kind of ride, especially the length of time it took to record these.

Yeah, I think what was also interesting, and I was just coming up with, was that the schools kind of represent and show my sort of enneagram developmental story, if you will, because, you guys know I've done so much reading and study over the last however many years of most of all, the books that are out there. And a lot of trainings and certifications. And I've done a lot of work with all three of these schools of thought.

And a lot of other books or content out there are basically derivations of these three schools of thought. And so what was interesting was I saw it, I heard it in their communication of how I've grown and how I hold the Enneagram.

I initially learned from the Risa Hudson School, and then I went into the narrative tradition. And then I lastly have learned mostly with the awareness to action approach. And does that make any sense?

It's kind of showed my development throughout learning the Enneagram. And what was interesting was hearing those was a way for me to remember that there's so much value in holding the unique diversity of each school.

Again, I know there's not.

It was harder to see that it was more nuanced, the diversity, but it required some practice to not only reinforce the one way I want to think about the Enneagram, but because we had multiple different schools of thought on, it was a practice for me to find the value in each and hold the complexity. You know, like I was saying that I. That I. That I think our listeners have done. I also had to practice doing that. And so it was.

It was just really interesting to be reminded that there is so much value in each of these schools of thought, even if, you know, maybe I do have a bent toward what one. As long as I'm staying receptive to the others, they are supporting and enhancing my understanding of the Enneagram.

And it was just a. Yeah, it was a good reminder to stay receptive to not only see through one framework or one perspective and that complexity, as hard as it is to hold nuance and complexity, AKA be mature with your. With your thinking, I just. Yeah, I found a lot of value in that. And I had to practice that for each episode. So that was.

That was not something I was expecting. I thought I would do that naturally, but I really had to practice.

Creek: 00:21:23

So I'll say one more thing here. I think what I did notice, and I think I said this in like the growth episode of humanizing the schools in front of me.

And I think it's so easy, so easy to get caught up in the theory and assume, you know, what they mean when they say this thing or I. It's just so much. It's such a different experience to talk with someone instead of just engage with ideas.

And I think whether Enneagram, politics, religion, any of those, like, you know, just touchy subjects where People disagree. Instead of equating someone with an idea again, we just keep going back to talk to the human. And I just. Every time my.

Even if I disagree with some of some of the school's fundamental assumptions about reality, all of them were wonderful to be around. And we laughed and we found commonalities and we found, oh, yeah, we're all just trying to grow.

What growth means is different to each of us to a certain extent. So just. I guess I just. This sounds weird, but I just.

I was more surprised at how much I did take away from each of the schools less about what I disagreed with them on and more about. Oh, that's a really great way of wording that. Or that's a really. That's a great reminder for this too, is also important in growth.

And it doesn't have to be complete, but I'm going to use it, you know, I'm going to use it in the way that makes sense for me. And so I think that's something.

Transitioning us into this next question that I did walk away with is I like to engage in contradictory ideas to kind of refine. I know my perception of the world.

Abram: 00:23:31

And.

Creek: 00:23:33

But it also is important to interact with people too, and not just.

Abram: 00:23:40

Yeah.

Creek: 00:23:41

Every now and then. Yeah. And I think that's just not a revolutionary takeaway. But it is just a really great reminder for me.

Enneagram theory is not that important in the grand scheme of things.

And so if we can do stuff, do stuff like that, where we are engaging people that are different from us on a regular basis, I think that's going to do far more than having the correct theory of the.

Abram: 00:24:11

Yeah. Yeah. That just brings up for me, I think if any. Any organization or school of thought or whatever is. Is promoting a level of growth or.

Or promoting that we can help you change or whatever.

If they're not giving you the opportunity to experience difference within what they're teaching you, I don't know if I can buy into it that well because that. That's really the only way you grow is to have opportunities to think differently than you already do. And I think.

I think that's definitely what we did with this, with this season. And I think that is what I also hear you saying. Great. Like, that's kind of the proof is in the pudding. You can't.

You can't grow if you're not surrounding yourself by different things than what you're familiar with and used to and comfortable with already. So.

Creek: 00:25:13

But why is it in the pudding?

Lindsey: 00:25:19

What a weird word.

Creek: 00:25:20

Why has it got. And is it American pudding? Like, we're talking like chocolate jello dried.

Abram: 00:25:26

Yeah.

Creek: 00:25:27

Or are we talking like English pudding, which is dessert?

Abram: 00:25:31

That's. You know, those are very helpful.

Creek: 00:25:33

These are the big questions we ask here on Fathoms and where, like, how.

Abram: 00:25:38

Deep into the pudding to make sure it's proven, you know, like you can't see it anymore or it's obvious. It's a little bit there still. So it's, you know, something.

Lindsey: 00:25:48

Well, it said proof, so maybe it's bread pudding.

Creek: 00:25:52

Oh, okay.

Abram: 00:25:54

Then play on words, huh? Mound blown. Mind blown beef mountblancing said.

Lindsey: 00:26:03

Oh.

Creek: 00:26:05

Before we go any further off the rails, Lindsay, what's something that you're kind of personally taking away from the season.

Lindsey: 00:26:12

That I'm not entitled to?

Creek: 00:26:15

That's significant? Yes.

Lindsey: 00:26:18

We started this season. I started this season thinking I was a type 2 and am leaving this season as a type 7.

So that was really interesting because I'm, you know, as the teachers are talking, I'm listening to how they're talking about type two, and then I'm also listening much more closely to type seven because I was like, I have not listened this closely to these teachers in particular or teachers in General teach about type 7.

Lee: 00:26:47

And.

Lindsey: 00:26:47

And it was a bizarre. It was a bizarre experience.

Creek: 00:26:52

And. Well, it's fascinating that we actually captured you still believing you were a two.

Lindsey: 00:26:57

Yeah.

Creek: 00:26:57

And then halfway through the season, you're showing up. I don't know if any of the listeners will, but I noticed a difference in how you showed up at the point where we had the discussion.

Lindsey: 00:27:09

Yeah.

Creek: 00:27:10

About.

Lee: 00:27:10

It's really strange.

Lindsey: 00:27:12

Yeah, we can talk about that after this. Cause I'm curious what you notice, but if you listen to the Type 2 episode and Hunter and I are just vibing and I'm like, oh, we are so the same.

Or, you know, like when Michael's teaching at one point and he references me as a type 2.

Creek: 00:27:29

Yeah.

Lindsey: 00:27:30

You know, it's just. There's some fun, fun things like that in this season.

Creek: 00:27:34

Yeah. Yeah, that's a. That's a big takeaway. All right, so we're gonna. We're gonna wrap up here the first part of Act 1 with some non Zen ridiculousness.

So definitely stick around for after this with our conversation with Lee. It was a really great discussion. We really value Lee's input and her expertise in all of this.

And so we're going to do as we did with all of our humans. We are going to do five words. Have ChatGPT, give us five words, because we all use it on a regular basis.

Lindsey: 00:28:11

We did not do with that. That with the humans. We let the humans pick their own words.

Creek: 00:28:14

That's true. That's true. So. And should we. So our first. What was our first prompt? Let's see, our first prompt.

Lindsey: 00:28:23

Are we just reading the ones we read the first time we recorded this, or should we do it fresh? We're doing it fresh.

Lee: 00:28:28

Okay.

Lindsey: 00:28:29

Okay.

Creek: 00:28:30

What's five words you'd use to describe me? We're going to start with that one.

Lindsey: 00:28:36

Okay. Based on everything we've explored together, here are five words I'd use to describe you. Curious, creative, empathic, intentional, resilient.

Am I reading explanations or.

Creek: 00:28:52

No, no, no. You feel good about that?

Lindsey: 00:28:56

Yeah. Yeah, I like them.

Creek: 00:28:59

Okay.

Abram: 00:29:00

What's interesting is that it assumes we want all positive things. Where are the negative things? You know?

Creek: 00:29:06

I mean, that is.

Lindsey: 00:29:07

We're going there. We're going there.

Abram: 00:29:09

We should do that next demand.

Creek: 00:29:10

ChatGPT be not positive.

Lindsey: 00:29:14

That's nice.

Abram: 00:29:15

Yeah. Don't have a positive bias here. Come on.

Creek: 00:29:17

Well, that. That'll be our next prompt, which we're going to have ChatGPT roast us. But, Abram, go ahead and do your first five.

Abram: 00:29:22

Okay? My first five are integrative, integrated, enneagram, contemplative.

Lee: 00:29:30

Yeah.

Abram: 00:29:32

Compassionate, curious, and grounded.

Lindsey: 00:29:39

Hey, I got curious, too.

Creek: 00:29:41

All right? And I have inquisitive, creative, reflective, playful. What? Intentional.

Lindsey: 00:29:51

Hey, I got intentional and creative, too.

Abram: 00:29:54

You're intentional with your playfulness. That's true.

Creek: 00:29:58

That's true.

Abram: 00:29:58

You're not just generally playful.

Lindsey: 00:30:00

How did me and Abram not get playful? And he got.

Abram: 00:30:03

How did.

Lindsey: 00:30:04

Neither of us get playful?

Lee: 00:30:05

And he got playful.

Abram: 00:30:06

I'm way more playful.

Lindsey: 00:30:08

I'm way more playful than him.

Creek: 00:30:11

Oh, man. All right, so next prompt. Next prompt is five more words that describe describe me, but go full out roast. I mean, be absolutely brutal.

All right, Lindsay, Is it just the same list, but they've just defined it differently?

Lindsey: 00:30:50

Emotionally fluent, but somehow still surprised every month that your hormones exist like clockwork. Why am I crying at this commercial? Oh, right. Luteal phase girl, you literally tracked. This is what GPT is saying to me right now.

Number two, you'll deep dive 48 tabs into Enneagram subtypes, trauma theory or skincare. Actives, but can't commit to finishing a full water bottle.

Creek: 00:31:18

Well, you're offended right now.

Lindsey: 00:31:21

Hydration is healing, you say as you sip your third iced coffee and sniff magnesium spray. Number three, you want structure, but only if it bends to your chaotic Whimsical.

Give me a rhythm, not a schedule, a vibe, not a plan, a playlist, but make it aligned with the follicular moon phase of my soul. Number four, your dog is in therapy because you need her to regulate you. Let's co regulate Nellie.

You whisper while she side eyes you and licks the floor in protest. I'm so confused. Number Five. You say you're deconstructing, but. Okay, that one went too far.

Abram: 00:32:12

What?

Creek: 00:32:13

Oh, no.

Abram: 00:32:14

Oh, wow.

Lindsey: 00:32:15

You say you're deconstructing, but still flinch when you hear the word anointed. You've replaced Bible study with podcasting about inner work, but the spiritual wound is still like, hi, remember me?

Lee: 00:32:30

Wow. Wow.

Creek: 00:32:35

Damn amazing.

Lee: 00:32:38

Wtf? GPT.

Abram: 00:32:41

Jeez.

Creek: 00:32:42

All right.

Lindsey: 00:32:43

Okay.

Abram: 00:32:43

Well, that was great.

Creek: 00:32:45

Was it? Was it Abram?

Abram: 00:32:50

I think this is a little better than what I initially got last time we did this. I think this is all right. You asked for it. Here comes the loving roast, forged in fire and flavored with truth. Number one, overthinker.

You could write a dissertation on your child's tantrums, your friend's text tone, or the metaphysical implication of doing the damn dishes. Emotional hoarder. You've got 17 journals, six grief frameworks, and a folder of full unsent letters to your inner child. Release them.

Let a few feelings go before they fossilize.

Lindsey: 00:33:31

Whoa. Is that true? Do you have a bunch of journals?

Abram: 00:33:37

I have a ton of notes. I don't have journals. I have a ton of.

Lindsey: 00:33:41

Yeah, they're like digital, right? It's like digital.

Abram: 00:33:45

Yeah. Three is existential maximalist. Can't just take a walk.

You're on a pilgrimage through shadow, soul and psyche because your neighbor said good morning. Weird. Number four is nice to a fault.

You'd rather spiritual bypass a boundary than hurt someone's feelings, even if it means slowly dying inside with a smile. I mean, I think that was me 10 years ago. Or you guys think it's totally me today. Number five. Well, number five is reparenting addict.

You've reparented your inner seven year old so many times, he's now a well adjusted adult with a Roth ira, and you're still stuck trying to get your real kids to eat breakfast without a breakdown.

Lindsey: 00:34:36

Yes.

Creek: 00:34:37

Wow, that's great.

Abram: 00:34:39

Oh, well, it asked for it said around 2. Or should I bring in the healing balm now?

Creek: 00:34:45

No, no, no.

Lindsey: 00:34:46

No healing balm.

Creek: 00:34:48

Here we go. For me, this is. Wow. It's the first time we did this. It was like playful and funny. This time it's brutal.

Lindsey: 00:35:00

This is the jugular. You did use the word brutal, though.

Creek: 00:35:02

I did. I did. Wow.

Lindsey: 00:35:05

So I copied you. And also did.

Creek: 00:35:07

Okay, so number one, meta narcissist. Not content with just having an ego. You have an ego about your ego. How self aware it is.

You're the kind of person who introspects about your introspection and then podcasts about it. Sentimentally pretentious. You'll cry over the shape of a cloud and then cite Kierkegaard to explain why it shattered your illusion of self. We get it.

You feel things. Must we all suffer?

Lee: 00:35:38

Wow.

Creek: 00:35:43

Aesthetic martyr. If a thing isn't beautiful, symbolic and tortured, it's not worth doing. You'd rather starve artistically than eat a sandwich. That doesn't resonate.

Philosophlaki. You love theory until ask you to do anything practical.

You'll wax poetic about Hegelian dialectics, but forget to pay your electric bill because it didn't feel aligned. Okay. Tragically, main character, your life isn't just a story. It's a cinematic slow burn with you dramatically misunderstood in every scene.

Meanwhile, your friends are in the background just trying to order lunch.

Lindsey: 00:36:23

Wow. That feels so true.

Creek: 00:36:27

Wow. Okay, okay, okay, okay. Wow. Okay. I really wish the other one had recorded because it was also really funny.

Lindsey: 00:36:37

I still have them.

Creek: 00:36:39

Listeners share with us. How did ChatGPT or your chosen AI, how did it roast you? We'd love like tag.

Put it on Instagram, Tag us or send us in the DMs if you don't want to go public with it. We'd love to hear how. How we're all suffering together. So with all of that, thank you all. And here we go. Our chat with Lee Fields.

Lindsey: 00:37:12

So we have gathered here together for the purpose of.

Abram: 00:37:17

This is the end.

Lee: 00:37:18

Growth. Growth is what brings us together.

Lindsey: 00:37:21

Together today.

Lee: 00:37:23

Today. An integration. Integration.

Lindsey: 00:37:34

Did it take us all the way to the finale to get a Princess Bride reference in here?

Lee: 00:37:40

Surely not.

Abram: 00:37:42

What is all of this from? It's a mixture of.

Lee: 00:37:44

That was Teresa Via.

Abram: 00:37:48

I thought it was Fievel Goes West.

Lee: 00:37:52

I haven't seen that one. So it can't be that you haven't.

Lindsey: 00:37:55

Seen Five Goes West. It's heartbreaking.

Abram: 00:37:57

Or is it the first one? That's the second one, I think. Fievel. And what a name. Fievel.

Lindsey: 00:38:03

Yeah. Who came up?

Lee: 00:38:04

You think he was a 5?

Abram: 00:38:05

Oh, I don't remember it.

Lindsey: 00:38:08

Well, he was alone a lot in that movie.

Creek: 00:38:10

That's too convenient.

Lee: 00:38:14

We wish.

Creek: 00:38:15

The secret weapon.

Abram: 00:38:17

That's what they say in It.

Lee: 00:38:19

Okay, see, that's more John of the Cross.

Creek: 00:38:29

I just can't with y'. All.

Abram: 00:38:33

So good.

Creek: 00:38:36

To manage two children and now they have one of their friends over. It's just madness.

Lindsey: 00:38:45

Dad, can Lee come over for the finale episode? Please, please, please, please? And can we record voices?

Lee: 00:38:57

Okay, so we were talking.

Lindsey: 00:39:01

Can she bring her pet deer? Please, please, please, please? Did you guys see?

Lee: 00:39:06

My dear neighbors, there were four new babies in my yard yesterday.

Abram: 00:39:10

Wow.

Lindsey: 00:39:11

Little deer babies. Deer babies.

Lee: 00:39:14

Yep. I'm not going full Snow White, but pretty darn close.

Creek: 00:39:19

Can you hear the voice, Lindsey? The ta da da da da. That's not Snowflake.

Lindsey: 00:39:25

No. Are you thinking Enchanted?

Creek: 00:39:27

No. Is it Snow White? That one? Yeah.

Lee: 00:39:31

I don't know. It's just Rando Disney.

Lindsey: 00:39:36

And you're the bird. And you're the bird that lands on my hand and mimics my singing.

Lee: 00:39:44

That's the one. What has happened so far? I could be the smart ass mouse duo in some. Ah, yes.

Lindsey: 00:39:51

Cinderelli. Cinderelli. Cinderelli.

Lee: 00:39:54

I'll be Gus. Or whatever his name.

Creek: 00:39:55

Gus.

Lee: 00:39:56

Gus.

Creek: 00:39:56

Gus.

Lindsey: 00:39:56

Gus.

Lee: 00:39:57

Yes, Gus. Gus.

Creek: 00:40:02

All right, so we have our friend Lee with us here today. I'm not sure how much of that you're gonna hear, but definitely listen to the rest of the episode for the bloopers at the end.

So Lee, as some of you may know, is our board of director. And, Lee, we do rapid fire questions around here.

Lee: 00:40:28

I've noticed.

Creek: 00:40:29

Yeah. And so if you were a piece of wood, what would it be?

Lee: 00:40:37

A piece of wood?

Creek: 00:40:38

A board, you know.

Lee: 00:40:40

Oh, oh, oh, oh, oh. Lumber.

Lindsey: 00:40:42

Like, what.

Creek: 00:40:44

What. What type of tree would you be made of?

Lee: 00:40:47

I have no idea.

Creek: 00:40:51

Sounding very willowy to me right now.

Lee: 00:40:55

Well, you know, I've never.

Lindsey: 00:40:57

Tree, is it? Yeah. So it would track.

Lee: 00:41:00

I. Thanks, Lindsay. I don't have any. I don't have willow data. I can't draw on that. I'm not weeping. I don't know.

Creek: 00:41:12

Rapid firely. Rapid fire. What's.

Lee: 00:41:14

Yeah, yeah. Better questions. Creek.

Lindsey: 00:41:19

Oh, bang, bang, bang.

Creek: 00:41:22

I love someone who can fight back. All right, great.

Abram: 00:41:26

So if your life is a movie and people are watching up to this point.

Lindsey: 00:41:32

What would they be screaming at you?

Lee: 00:41:35

Why are you here? Okay, we can go with that. I can work with. Why am I here? I'm here with you all my friends, reflecting back on your season five of Fathoms.

I'm sitting here also as sort of a surrogate for your listeners to bring back some feedback to you all or some things that I noticed because I know that podcasting can Be kind of a vacuum of an experience and that you've been working on this for a couple of years now in sort of a isolation chamber. And so as you're coming to the end of the season, or as you have come to the end of the season, I thought it might be fun to reflect back.

Not just fun, but constructive to reflect back to you some of what I see your season has given us, your listeners.

Creek: 00:42:38

Is this going to be compliments? Because I might need to go.

Lee: 00:42:43

I'll make it as bleak as possible.

Lindsey: 00:42:47

Well, then I might need to go.

Lee: 00:42:48

Right, and so you can't please, please everybody all the time.

Creek: 00:42:54

Point one.

Lindsey: 00:42:56

Point number one.

Abram: 00:42:58

Just address me the whole time if you'd like.

Lee: 00:43:00

That's right. So I'll start with a short list of 74 things that Abram did really well this season. And if there's time at the end, we'll get around to you.

Fours and sevens and what you might have done well enough. Okay, so I'll say the thing that all of you did really well was show up. And you showed up prepared but not scripted. You showed up vulnerably.

You showed up with your personalities, with the best aspects of your personalities and your senses of humor and your perspectives and compassion for. For one another and your guests and your listeners and all of the humans that you interviewed.

And what more could you ask for, working with a model and a tool for growth and compassion than living examples of that which I think you guys really demonstrated and expressed and created? So, sorry, Creek. There's a compliment there.

Lindsey: 00:44:13

Thank you.

Creek: 00:44:15

I'll manage. Thank you, Lee.

Lee: 00:44:17

Yeah, well, and I would say a slight coda to my compliment is another one. You all have shown up for a couple of years working on this project while simultaneously living real lives. Right?

You're podcasters, and that's how your listeners know you. But that's far from your whole vocational experience, even much less your life.

Abram: 00:44:41

Isn't that the truth?

Lee: 00:44:42

Right. This is an act of love.

Lindsey: 00:44:44

Absolutely.

Lee: 00:44:47

And so thanks for all of that because I think you've put together a really important resource for people now and a legacy piece of history for people to listen to in the future to be able to understand a history of a thing that they may just be meeting for the first time, but having a centralized place to find the best collection of recorded oral history of the modern history of the Enneagram is a really valuable resource.

Creek: 00:45:26

Yeah. Thank you.

Lee: 00:45:28

You're welcome. Thank you.

Creek: 00:45:30

I think we can all speak for all of us in that. I think it was both wonderfully exciting and very stressful and happy we did it. Happy that it's almost done, at least for now. So. And I think.

I mean, yeah, I will. I will accept these compliments, and I will also transition us to the next part of this where.

Abram: 00:45:58

Well, she was. That was part of the reason why she gave me those compliments.

Creek: 00:46:06

So I can always misread these things, you guys.

Abram: 00:46:12

Yeah.

Creek: 00:46:14

I hope one of the reasons. I mean, Lee's just kind of been in the background, like, at least for me, just helping me clarify my thoughts before I get on here.

So it's big round of applause for. For that, and I really appreciate that. She's a.

She's a. I affectionately refer to her as Lee GPT, because I can just insert a prompt, and then she eventually spits out something that's pretty profound. So. So part. Not just. We're not just having her on to kind of stroke our egos, though. That is nice.

But also, as some of you may know, Lee has done a ton of study of the Enneagram. She's actually studied more extensively than I think all of us, really, in the three schools that were in this season.

So just kind of wanted to get her own reflection on what she observed through her own training and through the season, just as a tool for you all to continue to process what the season was for and how to move forward. So, Li GPT, your prompt is season five. Go.

Lee: 00:47:30

Okay, well, I'm a newbie to ChatGPT, but I will say, as you all know, sometimes it needs prompt editing, so jump in. This is not just me talking.

First of all, thank you for having me, and it's been a really cool perspective to have a little bit of the behind the scenes.

cording this in the summer of: 2025

So with that as a backdrop, I've been thinking about the cliche of those who do not study history are doomed to repeat it.

And when I was a younger person, I would say when I was a child, but I think I thought this into more of my adulthood than I would like to remember accurately. I took that warning very literally, like, that we would be doomed to repeat history exactly the way it had happened.

And that seemed so unlikely that I didn't have to give too much thought to the nuance of the risk of not learning not just what happened, but why it happened. I was looking at the behaviors, not the motivations. Understanding where we are now and being.

My background is actually studying political science and philosophy and bringing some of that to our Enneagram community and the culture around that.

I think that one of the real benefits of looking at the history of the modern Enneagram and we can talk about the ancient history, but for my purposes here, and I think ongoing, that's irrelevant.

I think that the important part of the Enneagram history for us as human beings in the modern world is really more focused on our more recent history as a community of people working with a model and the personalities that develop that model and the humans who teach that model and the impacts that those human beings personalities have on that model and therefore their students. Right. And one of the things that your history episode illustrates is the lineage of how we got here, right?

How these three schools where their origins were, who were the people that informed them as they were developing their models, and what are they teaching Dao and how are they iterating their models to be modern, to be technology that's useful in the modern world, but that the fingerprints of what built it up to this point are still there and informing their philosophies and approaches. And I think that's important to learn from.

Creek: 00:50:48

As much as I thoroughly enjoyed, like, researching the whole history episode and understanding, you know, how what you think about these things way down here does affect what's happening now. But I don't know if that's always known, necessary. You can learn a lot, right?

But in the immediate of now, it has much less immediate accessibility to how we make decisions and how we articulate ourselves in the modern world with its context and what is required for someone to be a healthy, adaptive human and treat others with kindness and compassion. And I think we can get too caught up in the facts and forget about the people.

Lee: 00:51:42

Yeah. One thing that's important is you have a diversity of listeners, right?

You've got individual people who are doing inner growth work on themselves, listening as individuals.

And then you've got people who are Enneagram teachers or coaches or practitioners that are using this model, these models in their work with other people. And I'm going to use an example that I haven't tried out, so we'll see how long it holds up. But I need to know a little bit about how my brain works.

But if I'm trying to teach you how my brain works, I need to be more Informed about how brains really work. Right. I can't skip over the important pieces if I'm only trying to understand myself.

It doesn't matter so much if I'm making careless mistakes in how I'm learning. Right. That's a problem. That's only mine.

But if I'm trying to teach other people something and I'm putting myself out there as some sort of authority, then I have a responsibility to do that. Well, right. To not commit malpractice in teaching. Right.

And I think that people who are teaching or coaching or therapists or practitioners in whatever way do need to understand the recent history of the tools they're using for a few reasons. One is to not anchor bad information on flawed facts.

And one is to learn from past mistakes and not reinvent the wheel making the same mistakes over and over again. Right.

I feel like we're looking at a model that is about like the subject matter that the Enneagram is trying to cover is about how humans are complicated and make mistakes and how can they be better. So how could it be that the people who built those models weren't doing those things?

Also, it's naive to think that personality, adaptive and maladaptive skills, positive and negative attributes of people went into building the thing. If you look at the recent history of the Enneagram, that's obvious, right?

There are personality clashes, there are disagreements, there's fights over property, there's lawsuits, there's, you know, hurt feelings, there's grudges.

You know, in the same way that there's a beautiful community of like minded people who are trying to bring compassion into the world and help people, it's like both are true. In the end, the Enneagram is a model that shows us information about projections and idealizations, you know, and we need a map to see that stuff.

But without acknowledging that it's messy work, that there's uncertainty there, that this is a theory, let's see how this works. Like I loved a thing that Terry Saracino from the Narrative set about meeting people where they are.

And there was a through line with all of the schools of the point of this work is to bring more compassion and to be able to see and accept and allow reality more as it really is instead of an idealization or a projection. Right. That's the point, is just to see things more clearly more of the time.

Lindsey: 00:55:34

Well, and that'll really mess you up.

Lee: 00:55:39

Say more.

Lindsey: 00:55:41

I think that it is a feature of this model, not a bug, but it can present as a.

Lee: 00:55:49

Because.

Lindsey: 00:55:51

Then you start Going, I can't hold things the same way I used to. The containers don't work anymore. The legs of the table are broken. Like, where's my foundation now?

So there is definitely a disorientation and reorientation involved in the use of this tool. And I just wanted to say that because it did. Again, we're just.

There is no such thing as linear, linear progress, linear growth, even when you're using this tool properly. And I think you said it so well. This is really messy work. It is so messy.

But yeah, I was really grateful for the honesty and the humility around that that we were able to talk about with the sequel season.

Lee: 00:56:42

Another thing that I loved about a through line with all of the schools was that you really explained sort of the lineage of where their school came from, the beliefs that were foundational in their creation.

Whether it was Diamond Heart and Gurdjiefian work with the Enneagram Institute or a sort of more psychological and spiritual approach, approach with the narrative, or a more pragmatic, rigorous, actionable approach with awareness to action. They all had values at the base of the school.

And then they are applying an Enneagram model that has some similarities throughout and coming out within a way to. Okay, so we've. We've applied this now what, Right. And the now what is kind of different for each of the schools. The.

The dance of how you navigate what after is different, but the goals are still compassion for yourself and other people, understanding less suffering and a clearer. A clearer vision of reality. And I think that was beautiful. And again, I think Terry Saracino said it also very well.

Not just to meet people where they are, but pick what works for you. Right. Like, that's not a softball. That's not a concession of saying, do your own research and pick which science you like. Right.

That's like, how can you hear this information right now? Right. If you're looking to grow what speaks to you, what's approachable for you, what's accessible for you, what makes sense to you.

Yeah, I could do that. I could try that. And it may be that later, another model or another approach is better for you.

It doesn't have to be tribal just because there are different ways of thinking.

But I think that when we're delving into the messy work of self awareness and observation, and that is hard, and we're facing having to challenge beliefs that we have held and we're struggling with reidentifying ourselves and all that stuff, that feels very vulnerable. And when people feel vulnerable, they look for certain Somewhere.

And sometimes the way we look for certainty is for external authorities to have rules for us or to be able to attach to a system of belief, whether it's political or religious, that it's like, okay, this is me. I find myself here. I belong here. Right? And that means that. That everybody who isn't here with me is them.

And I think that that dynamic, that pattern has a logic to it. As social creatures, we're gonna be safer in groups, on and on and on. But it also has a cost.

I think that it's only through intentionally becoming more self aware and staying intentionally open to hearing other perspectives and mindsets and as non judgmentally as you can is the way to sort of have both of those things at once, right? The individual experience of I feel vulnerable. And the larger experience of. But everyone is vulnerable like this, just like me.

Everyone out there is alone and together.

And I think that all of the schools are pointing to different ways of seeing yourself where you can hold more of that complexity that you're talking about. Lindsay. Where you can hold more polarizing things as true.

At the same time, I think that's the transformation piece is going from the limited way that I saw myself and the world to a more expansive way of seeing that. But then know that I'm then going to go back to the limited way of experiencing things because I've given myself a new set point, right?

And realizing, oh, normalizing. I think this is a thing that awareness to action does really well is normalizing and non pathologizing.

The fact that you're going to wind up back at the new set point. Abram, you remember me, the Maslov hierarchy that you were talking about in a recent episode, maybe the last one.

Abram: 01:01:36

Unconscious incompetence, Conscious incompetence, conscious competence and unconscious competence, right?

Lee: 01:01:47

So that makes a circuit, right? Like that's, that's the spiral. But then you're back to where you started from. Not quite the same, right? But it's like you start over again.

I think that's what inner work is like. You can recognize yourself in one way. It's a slippery sucker, man. I mean, there's not going to be an after with inner work, right?

Lindsey: 01:02:17

Damn it.

Lee: 01:02:18

I know. Spoiler alert. It's just gonna start right back over.

It's an ongoing process and I think that one of the things that's important and this is where, well, I could go in a bunch of different directions and I'm just going to restrain myself a little bit. This is where we can get stuck in self observation. And self awareness. And we just constantly see something new about.

About ourselves and think that that's doing inner work and it's part of it. But unless we pick something to focus on and start making changes or start trying stuff. Right. We're just thinking about stuff. Right.

And there's value in thinking about, but it can also be a trap. And we give ourselves credit for doing things when we thought about them. It's taken a lot of energy to think about this.

I no longer have the energy to do anything about it. Right. We're robbing ourselves of the resource of energy to ruminate.

And so I think that the invitation, I would say that the invitation from awareness to action and from the narratives both have a clear growth path. Right. I think that Enneagram Institute points to growth paths, but that school isn't developing new material in the present.

It's older technology that has been brought into. A lot of other teachers are based on Rizzo Hudson work. And I know Russ is still teaching and developing new things.

I'm not saying there's no growth path with Enneagram Institute material. I'm just saying from the institute school itself.

But the 5 or 6A's that narrative enneagram was talking about and the Awareness Authenticity Action approach with ATA are both inviting people into skill building and practices to grow. You know, that means moving out of awareness.

Creek: 01:04:39

Yeah.

And I think it's really interesting going back to what you were saying about Terry saying like just meeting people where they are and finding what's necessary for you for that moment, for that sort of growth opportunity. And I stumbled upon something the other day that I've been trying to get at for a really long time.

And I got to call Nan Henson, who is one of the Enneagram Institute people, and talk me through it.

And it was just like through her training, through her own work and that sort of thing, just I was able to bring another level of awareness to something that I have not been able to articulate before. I'm like. Or I'm like, I forgot about that.

And it's like, man, those four patterns are still so effing strong and so sneaky that I don't even realize that they're happening. I just think I'm seeing clearly.

Lee: 01:05:51

Yeah.

Creek: 01:05:52

And so the awareness is such, like having those light bulb moments, so important and so necessary to see how I'm not living the way that I thought I was, you know, and I was delusioning myself. I don't know if you can say that, but that's. And so to then step into therefore, what does that mean for this situation?

This situation, this moment, this moment. And has to start with awareness.

But then you have to find the way to lean into all the work that you have been doing, the things that we talked about and growth of, how you've cultivated self awareness, how you've cultivated critical thinking and resilience building and discipline and all those things in order to see what needs to happen and then to do the thing with that new narrative and to take those, take those narratives and allow them to grow up and to trust the work that I've been doing over the years instead of just the stories that I've been telling myself for even longer.

And so I don't even necessarily know what point I'm trying to get to other than just not only is it so many of the schools have so many different teachers and they all have something to offer on some level, I'm sure. So never limit yourself to a school. And the awareness piece is important, but you gotta do something, you gotta lean into it even harder.

Lee: 01:07:49

You can't stop at awareness. But don't worry, you'll come back to it. Yeah, right?

Creek: 01:07:54

Yeah, it'll come slap you around a bit, right?

Lee: 01:07:58

But I'll pull an abram and give a definition, right? And I think the definition of wisdom is an application of experience, right? Not an application of knowledge.

In some conversation the four of us have been having recently, we were talking about how life is for living.

Life is not for sitting in a self help workshop putting yourself into a shame spiral or being dissatisfied with your present or your past, or dreading your future because you don't have the skills to do things right. You're there in that room to figure out how to suffer less.

Or like Mario said in the most recent episode, you're not broken, you just need a little help, right? It's like this is what this stuff is for. It's to give you a little help. And the practices and the habits that you are building are your tools.

The Enneagram is more of a manual or a map, not in a prescriptive way. I want to be careful about that. It's not because you're a four. This is exactly what you do. It's like this is described.

We're not any single point on the Enneagram. We are a collection of a collection of things. At best, from the Enneagram we have connecting points.

There's internal dynamics of what's going on with all of us that make logical sense. But it's like it's an operations manual for learning how to use the tools you've got. What is going on that I can't see myself doing?

What's the friction that's actually there? Not the friction that I think is there. Yeah. Right. And now what do I do to address that?

Abram: 01:09:49

Anyway, those are all great points. Yeah.

Lee: 01:09:54

I mean, glad I asked you.

Abram: 01:09:56

I think I'm tracking. I mean, I'm with as well as I've tried to listen with children interrupting and not so great wi fi.

What I hear, I think is being said that if any tool really one that promises what the Enneagram does, if it's not truly helping you see more clearly, it's quite limited in its. How beneficial is it? But at the same time, what I hear you saying is insight and awareness isn't the end goal.

And you have to then do something different once you see, you know yourself in any automatic thing you couldn't normally see yourself in before. What are you doing now because of that information? Uh, and I. I mean, I. I even just. I think about like, are you. We talk about this.

We say this word adaptive a lot, but I even just asked the question, are we getting better? Are we getting more adaptive at doing our own personalities prison? Or are we actually, you know, seeing.

Expanding outside of the limitations of our conditioning of our self concept? And I think that's where we start to do something new with the insight of being able to see something we couldn't see before.

Creek: 01:11:17

And it's so easy to forget. Like after my conversation with Nan, like my brain was on fire. I felt like my brain was rewiring.

And then today I'm like, wait, what was that thing again? Like I'm back in the same pattern. Yeah, I know the right words. I just have to like, fight.

Like, find my way back to that new way of turning the dial so that I can, I guess, yeah, live with less suffering, but also live with more freedom.

Abram: 01:11:52

Yeah. It makes me think of this line I heard recently from. Who is it? It's a person. Robin Sharma, I think that's the person.

They say that small, daily, seemingly insignificant improvements, when done consistently over time, lead to stunning results. And so it is the many, many micro movements of doing something different with new awareness that lead to, you know, meaningful change.

But it takes a long time of like, what you just said, Creek. Now I gotta remember it.

It doesn't really matter if I have a light bulb intensity a moment, you know, if I'm not practicing it over and over and over into who I'm Becoming.

Creek: 01:12:39

Yeah. And it feels illogical until it starts to work and your brain starts to be like, oh, okay, all right. So we're still getting the thing, right?

We're still getting the thing that we want, but we're just doing it differently. Got it. Okay, I'll help you out here. And that just takes a long time. It takes a slog.

It's up and down, back and forth, non linear, as you're saying, Lindsay. And yeah, it's. But it is worth it. And it always. It's always also like, man, I have to keep growing. Sometimes it feels that way. I have to. All right.

I don't have to, but it is. But I know that, like, I. I enjoy the results of it. I enjoy, you know, not feeling terrible every day.

Lee: 01:13:29

Well, whether you keep growing or not, there's going to be friction in your life. And how you experience that is going to be impacted by how much practice you put in to being able to experience discomfort intentionally.

I'll quote you back to you, Creek. We have to teach our brains. We have to teach our brains to remember that we've learned something new. Right. And until we do it, it won't stick.

We will revert back to what was working by habit. Not decide to do it necessarily, but just.

That's what we'll wind up doing, you know, and like, we haven't really gotten down into the nuts and bolts of the differences between. Between the schools.

And I don't know that we will, but I will underscore one of the primary difference in the awareness to action model is focusing on clear thinking. Not as an adjunct to enneagram work, but as a necessary component of inner work. Right.

And not to say, oh, critical thinking, like, not defining that as intellectually superior work. No, just less muddy thinking. Right. I've heard Mario describe this, you know, cognitive dissonance.

It's that uncomfortable feeling in the space where your brain is when you encounter something that is counter to what you believe already. Right. Brain fog. Right. This weird agitation is my brain running into a wall of where the edge of its belief is. So what am I gonna do about that?

Learn something. Ask questions. Be curious. Challenge that wall. Or stay back here. And now I suddenly feel settled again. Right.

Lindsey: 01:15:41

I wanna add something here too, to say, I think that it's important to remember that there's a. There's. Well, there's a way to reframe slipping back into an old pattern. Because it doesn't mean you're not making progress.

It means you're getting opportunities to show that you're making progress. So this image is coming to my mind, this memory of when my oldest son was learning to write the Alphabet.

And I had this dry erase thing for him with the Alphabet, you know, uppercase, lowercase letters in black. And all he had to do was trace it. That's all he had to do. And he fought me on it, and he fought me on it. Cause he was so scared of failing.

And it literally took him like two hours as a four year old. That's a really, really long time to do these letters. Don't hear me saying what I'm not saying.

It wasn't like I was forcing him to do, you know, sit there crying for two hours, but I wanted him to finish it. And so I let him take his time and work through his process. And he finally finished it.

And then a few days later I put it in front of him again with his work, previous work gone. And he had to do it again. And he did it in like under 10 minutes with far less crying and far.

And he was a little shocked when he saw that thing come out again. Like, I already did it and you're making me do it again.

And that's kind of the imagery that I'm getting about how frustrating it can be to see yourself in those same situations and see, oh, I'm recreating this pattern or this dynamic relationally, or I've fallen back into this trap.

And I think a wonderful way to think of that is, well, the dry erase board is just in front of you again, and you're gonna do it faster and better and you're going to see more clearly the path through this this time.

Abram: 01:17:38

Are you guys familiar with Portia Nelson's kind of parable that she called autobiography in five short chapters? It's a way to like describe you probably, I would assume you're familiar with it.

It's like the way to describe different stages of psychological change. I think it can encapsulate in an interesting way this some of what we're talking about. Let me just read it real quick.

So it's phrased in chapters too. You'll probably. It'll come to you, you'll hear the familiarity here. So chapter one is I walk down the street. There is a deep hole in the sidewalk.

I fall in. I am lost, I am hopeless. It isn't my fault. And it takes forever to find a way out.

Chapter two, I walk down the same street, there's a deep hole in the sidewalk. I pretend I don't see it. I fall in again. I can't believe I am in the same place. But it isn't my fault. It still takes a long time to get out.

Chapter three. I walk down the same street. There's a deep hole in the sidewalk. I see it there. I still fall in. It's a habit. But my eyes are open. I know where I am.

It is my fault. And I get out immediately. Chapter four. I walk down the same street. There is a deep hole in the sidewalk. I walk around it. Chapter five.

I walk down another street and fall.

Lindsey: 01:18:57

Into a different hole. Yeah, refer to chapter one.

Lee: 01:19:04

And we're back. And I think two things about that. One, in this space, we work with a lot of people who are looking for self improvement, right?

We're looking to improve ourselves. When you're looking to improve yourselves, that implies there's something wrong with you, right?

Whether you are consciously thinking there's something wrong with you or not, there's a striving for bettering. And as we know from another teacher, Dr. Jerome Wagner, PhD, there's polarities in all of us, right?

When we are projecting onto somebody else the things that we don't see about ourselves, we aren't owning them in ourselves. We're wanting them to fix it, them to handle it. They're the stupid people with this problem. But we know that we have it too.

Like, that's our first trip down. I don't know, it's our second or third trip down the street where we throw them into the hole.

But being able to use the compassion part of the Enneagram model, right? To be like, oh, there was a logic to why I'm doing this. It normalizes it. And sometimes, Lindsay, you were talking about reframing at 7.

Sometimes reframing is precisely and exactly the perfect tool for the task.

Lindsey: 01:20:34

That's what I'm trying to tell you guys.

Lee: 01:20:36

It's perfect. Unless it isn't, right? It's a short term gain and a long term cost. Right?

And that's the awareness piece is being able to slow down enough to ask the question of is this a short term gain for a long term cost and is that a problem and can.

Creek: 01:21:00

I use this tool better? Because you can reframe it in a way that works long term.

Lee: 01:21:07

Yes. How can I be more skillful with this tool? Right. How can I use this tool more adaptively? You don't have to say that's it.

I've now seen that I reframe things and I'll never do it again. And every time that I do it I will criticize myself for it and will feel like I'm backsliding and back to square one and failing. Right.

Don't have to do that. But you need to practice noticing your triggers when you find yourself reframing what just happened. Right. Why am I needing to reframe this?

Not to be so captured in my reactivity.

That's what a thing that Christopher Copeland said when the narrative was talking, he was talking about bringing the narrative's curriculum, updating it. Right. And he used a turn of phrase, talking about. In the modern parlance, we would say this. Right. Instead of like enneagram lingo.

And I think that's a way that, you know, we're talking about advancing the enneagram. We've studied all this history. How do we move forward? Now you ask this question to all the schools.

And I think part of how we do it is use our tool of language more elegantly, more specifically.

And another thing that Christopher said is with more imagination, more flexibly, to really convey the meaning of what we're saying in more modern terms.

Being more, more present with reality means managing my emotional reactivity to the situation that's happening in front of me, dealing with my nervous system in this conversation, realizing that I am hijacked by stuff that has nothing to do with this other person. But it's an inside job that I'm running this story and that is impacting how I am relating to this person, person. Do I want to be doing that? Right.

Is this serving me? It's like that's the purpose of all this stuff.

It's not just to be like either entering an endless loop of self recrimination for doing our pattern or justifying a lot of crappy behavior because we're just a nine or we're just a one or whatever. You know, I am who I am. You know, it's not surrendering to an outside reality. It's choosing to live our lives with intention. Right.

I mean it when I say this. Right.

I thought about what I was going to say and yeah, I'm going to screw it up again, but I thought about what I was going to say or what I didn't say. Respond versus react. You know, that old chestnut, that old.

Lindsey: 01:24:06

Easy thing to do.

Lee: 01:24:08

Yeah.

Lindsey: 01:24:09

So some of the feedback that we got consistently through this season, some of the questions we got were along the lines of why we didn't include certain things. So we got questions about Bee Chestnut. Why aren't you talking more about subtypes?

And that seems less like a significant contribution why aren't you including Suzanne Stabile?

And then the Jesuit school, you know, is thought of in a lot of people's minds as sort of its own thing with its own stream within the Enneagram literature. So we'd had conversations about that. We're very intentional. You know, we've, we've laid that out in the earlier episodes about why we.

Why we went the direction that we did. But I just wanted to honor the listeners who had those questions coming up and kind of give them a thoughtful response to that.

Lee: 01:25:03

Well, as a listener, I can say that season five was not lacking in content by exploring three schools.

I mean, I think if you were trying to make a map of the entire universe, you'd have to have multiple seasons and more schools would have been involved.

But my understanding from listening to the earlier seasons, and correct me if I'm wrong, is that part of how you chose the schools that you were talking to for this season were schools that had been impactful to you three and that you had studied with or learned from. Not that you haven't learned from other people, but also, and this is a logistical.

Creek and Lindsay and Abram will not admit this themselves, but if you guys knew what it took to schedule what happened over the season, you would not be adding variables of more people.

I don't know how many of you have experienced the joys of a doodle poll about scheduling, but take that and multiply it by a three digit number, at least for how bad it could be.

So I'm going to be a little defensive of you all for some logistical reasons of not including other schools, but also really to underscore that I know from conversations we've had and from understanding your philosophy as a podcast group, that it was in no way to exclude other voices or to limit the exploration of. Of the possibility of what's out there. Right. With any series, there has to be a beginning, a middle, and an end.

I'm sure that there could be future conversations.

I know you all have talked about different possibilities of things that might happen with continuing conversations around this sort of topic, but there's really just no way to include everyone. And trying to compare three schools that cover something of an arc of history, Right.

And these other schools that just you mentioned other schools were teachers, prominent teachers. A lot of them spring from the Rizzo Hudson Enneagram Institute or from the narrative tradition.

So there's modifications that they may have made to their model or their teaching or their understanding of the principles, but the basics are there, and it all Sprang from the same original oral tradition teaching. Right. So I think it's kind of covered. That's my 2 cents or 35 cents.

Abram: 01:27:41

I would just piggyback on that and say that there's a difference between representing whole frameworks that feel largely, or at least in specific ways, different or versus like there's individual theories that are different within the same basically held framework. Does that make sense?

So we largely picked three different frameworks that we felt had a lot of difference, even though there were similarities versus other schools that still have basically the same basic framework, even though they have slightly different individual theories. That wasn't enough for us to include those four things.

Creek: 01:28:26

Yeah, I mean, absolutely. I think that's. I don't think, first of all, I don't think anyone can argue like narrative and Rizo Hudson are. We're the two big ones.

And the technically, you know, Don Riso learned it from the Jesuits. So there is. There's that stream in there. I think it's.

It's also also looking at what schools are most shaping the trajectory of the modern way, of how we're shaping and forming how we advance the enneagram. So there is just a combination of trying to get as full of a version of the history as possible. And where do these ideas come from as well.

Well as shaping how are we thinking about it now? And that's not to say that any of these other teachers are not shaping how we think about it now. But I learn best through high contrast.

And then you can slowly make things more granular, whether it's wings or centers or tri types or this harmony triad or that attachment style. Like there's endless theories that you all know, I'm sure. But that's. That's for your own exploration. And this really was the.

Just the beginning for you to start thinking that there are different models, that people think differently about the same thing and they have their reasons for it and we need to understand their reasoning for it before we can make a do I agree with that or not? And so I stand by our decisions for sure. And I mean, who knows what the future is going to be?

But I do in some ways, I'm like, all right, listener, go do your own. That sounded really aggressive. I mean, go do your own work. Like here we just laid it out.

Do what we did with these three schools and go do your own work. Go sit under different teachers, compare and contrast. Push on things. I can't stress that enough.

Push on things to find out what are the definitions, what's the difference Here. What are you actually saying here? It sounds pretty, but what. What are you actually saying and understanding why they're saying it.

Something could sound good, but they're saying it for a different reason. So then you might need to reanalyze whether or not it's a good thought or not. This is the.

To me, this is the only way forward for the Enneagram to stop pretending that it's one thing, that there is no difference. That of course, we're all just trying to grow. But if the last episode.

I don't remember if I said this already or not, but if the last episode was one of the most important in general of like, how do we grow? How do we just do this thing? This episode is K. But there's better ways of doing this for different people, you know?

But until we start being pragmatic about how we are critical, then we're just going to keep spinning our wheels. And that's not taking the Enneagram and growth seriously.

Abram: 01:32:07

Creek, I hear you just encouraging people toward this word I'm growing more fond of over the years. Individuation.

Lindsey: 01:32:15

I knew a joke was coming.

Lee: 01:32:17

I don't think it's a joke.

Abram: 01:32:18

It's not a joke.

Creek: 01:32:20

Well, I got the joke.

Abram: 01:32:23

How would that be joking?

Creek: 01:32:24

Because you wouldn't like individuating.

Abram: 01:32:27

Oh, okay. Is that the joke? Nevermind.

Creek: 01:32:30

It was supposed to be a joke.

Lee: 01:32:33

Not all jokes land.

Lindsey: 01:32:35

Sorry.

I'm trying to figure out your tone when you're, like, speaking seriously but you're about to drop a joke, and I was like, oh, I'm gonna nail it right now.

Lee: 01:32:45

And then I miss it.

Lindsey: 01:32:46

Sorry. Sorry.

Lee: 01:32:50

Go back.

Abram: 01:32:51

No, I. It's a word that I've grown because it's been so important for me to learn how to do.

Creek, what I hear you talking about is you're encouraging this word individuation. I'm just repeating myself.

But basically, the reason it's so important is because there's been years of people just regurgitating the same initial original voices. And nobody's individuated. Everybody's just perpetuating the same thing.

And because it came out in the early 80s, there's stuff we've learned, and if we don't, that is now inaccurate. Saying the stuff that came out a long time ago is not quite true to reality.

And so if we don't learn to find our own voice, then we're just perpetuating something that was never ours in the first place. And you can't really speak from clarity and Authority and a real place that is personal to you. Yeah.

If you don't make it your own, and that's what I hear you saying is individuation. There has to. You can't actually become an expert, I would say if you don't learn to embody this in your own way, what does it mean for you?

And that can only be done through wisdom, experience.

Creek: 01:34:13

And I'll caveat that a little bit of in your own way.

I see this a lot where people are pulling these modern things that we're finding out or the other models that we're messing with out there in psychology and science, and they're pulling it back into the Enneagram model, instead of pushing the Enneagram model forward into the modern age, where the Enneagram should not be unassailable, it should stand up if it's worth our salt, as we push it into the things that we are learning in science and psychology and all the modern things that we are pushing into. Just finding your niche in the market of the Enneagram, that's not individuating. Using.

Using your skills to test the Enneagram, I think, is how we advance it and to see where it works, where it doesn't, where it breaks down, where it shines. So it's not just the corner of the market thing. It's how are you testing this thing that you're building your life from.

In some regards, if you are using.

Lee: 01:35:25

The Enneagram consistently, I'm hearing it's a both and right.

There's an individuation and then a coming back to the collective, and then an individuation and a coming back to the collective of I'm going to find my own voice and apply this stuff in my own real life and find which school is accessible to me to work with or which school of thought. Not necessarily school. You don't have to go to an Enneagram school to use the Enneagram or learn from it.

But when you're being met where you are with things that you can access and apply doing that. But you cannot do this kind of work all by yourself because you aren't going to be able to see yourself clearly all by yourself. Right.

So you've got to go back into something. You have to re. Enter a collective, a community. You have to get feedback from somebody. It doesn't have to be a group of people.

It can be one other person telling you, well, okay, I hear you saying this, but what I'm seeing is something else to help to invite that conversation and then you take that back. I think it's a natural part of the learning process. And we could go a bunch of different ways.

But just looking at Lindsay, you were talking about childhood development earlier, right? It's like, how do you teach a child to do something? You show them how to do it, you explain why you do it. They go practice it.

They come back, see how they did. Lather, rinse, repeat. That's the way.

I think this might be a good place, place to shift into one other thought that I had about all of us speaking to people who, in our community who are working with the Enneagram professionally or teaching it or sharing it with groups or quote, unquote, using it with people. And that's just the awareness that there's implicit bias for all, all of us.

And when we are filtering the Enneagram through ourselves to share it with other people, part of our bias is attaching to that, right. The way we see things, our perspective is coloring and informing how we teach it and share it and what we prioritize and don't, you know.

So as we're in this season looking at these different schools who, as Creek we saying, were like, sort of broadly different from one another, right? The Enneagram Institute being based in a more psycho, spiritual, Gurdjiefian insight, self awareness way, inner inquiry, right.

Ways of doing that, and the narrative sort of expanding on that and updating it, some with even more psychology and mindfulness and things like that, and over awareness to action, being more intellectually rigorous in a way, and pragmatic. There's something to learn from each of those approaches, right?

You can pull from those things, but know that the material that you're consuming from each of those schools is flavored with the biases of the people who created those models. And that you'll be doing the same.

And that's part of the examining how am I shaping this, how am I biasing this, how am I not seeing clearly about this, you know, and that that's part of how we advance. How we advance the Enneagram is to acknowledge our own strengths, deficits and potentials.

So we're talking about the history of how we got here, the sort of snapshot of where we are and our next steps of how do we advance the Enneagram, how do we work? How do we move this work forward responsibly?

we advance the enneagram from: 2025

Lindsey: 01:39:53

Well, I really was thinking about this when Abram was talking.

Abram: 01:39:57

Me, actually.

Lindsey: 01:39:58

Yeah.

When you were talking about individuating, holding that tension of making this information something that is so integrated into my practices, and yet being able to see myself as part of a collective. Yeah, Lee, that whole section you guys just talked about, I was literally thinking. I was like, oh, this is so great.

For that piece of the conversation about how do we go forward is. I kept thinking. I was like, this sounds like healthy attachment, actually. Yeah, I'm moving forward.

I'm testing the waters, and then I'm coming back to a safe base that I've tested. This base. Right. Like, I don't think there's. I almost feel kind of guilty saying this, but I just.

I do feel like if we're talking about being responsible, I feel like it needs to be said if you're in Enneagram spaces where you just kind of feel like something's a little. Little off here, something's a little weird about how this tool is getting used.

Maybe you feel a little emotionally manipulated, or it feels, I don't know, some kind of way just like press it, press into that there. Because there are. There are safe spaces in the Enneagram community. There are people who are using it competently, skillfully, adaptively.

And that there are also. Also weird places. There are some weird things happening. And I feel like it's irresponsible.

Hearkening back to the five chapter story with the potholes in the street, it's irresponsible to just be like, I don't see that thing there. I don't see the weird thing happening. I'm just going to gaslight myself. Everything's fine.

That can have really devastating consequences long term for you individually and for the community collectively. So, yeah, that.

Finding that healthy space of I'm trying some things out, but I know I have a base that is gonna keep me anchored, keep me thinking clearly, ask me really great questions, challenge my biases, encourage me, you know, help me feel encouraged when I need that. I think that's kind of my hope for everybody as we go forward. And I feel like a word is like tenacious.

I guess there's like a tenacity involved in that. There's a great deal of resilience involved in that process. And I do think it's worth it.

Abram: 01:42:35

Yeah, I think, to try to encapsulate all of that into a single response. For me, I think one of my personal hopes with the Enneagram is that we keep learning how to hold it both firmly and loosely.

I think if we're truly growing. A friend and I were talking about this the other day. I think we move back and forth between naming and unnaming, if we're truly growing.

So, for example, you know, we come into the world undifferentiated, right? There's no. We're symbiotically connected. There's no separate me and the world or my mother.

But then as we cultivate a personality, we knew who we are. We are a separate thing. We have identified with something, a collection of the ways that I show up in the world with. We develop personality.

So then that framework, at some point along the way gets outgrown. So we're moving back and forth between naming and unnaming, but we're still moving forward. So we're cultivating a.

The whole point is that the maturity around naming and unnaming back and forth as we're moving forward and growing is that we're moving into greater levels of complexity. And per the Enneagram, I think, you know, naming is when we're typing ourselves, right? It's when we're typing other people.

It's when we're categorizing, looking for the patterns now that we have typed ourselves about. It's finding the language about what's happening inside of us because we. We have this dominant type or. Or. Or bias. So it gives us the structure.

Structure. It gives us the clarity to start with. But then I think, you know, we.

We also then need to start to unname because then maybe we've overdone it or we need to recognize when we're likely to overdo the naming piece.

So this is when we start to let go of our fixed lens in order to see ourself differently or to see other people differently with fresh eyes so that we can start choosing new things. The reason we unname, though, is usually because people grow, because they surprise us, right?

And life reshapes them, which is how we have to start seeing them differently, because that means we also have to start seeing ourselves differently. And I just think this is, for me, naming and unnaming. It's a helpful little theory or structure that I'm beginning to work with about.

Where am I at with this tool with the Enneagram? With whatever tool I'm using.

Do I need to be in a naming stage or do I need to be in an unnaming stage because I can't see things as they actually are? Or do I need to categorize a little bit more now so that I can see things more clearly? And I just think, does that make sense?

I think this is back to what I said originally, that we need to learn how to hold the Enneagram both firmly and loosely. I think it's both. And that, I think is what we were trying. One of the points we were trying to make with all the schools. And even.

Even, like in our whole progression with all five seasons, I would say, yeah, so I guess that would be the soapbox of if, if this thing isn't helping you see yourself and other people more clearly and start making, you know, better, more adaptive, healthier choices for yourself, then start unnaming because maybe you've outdone, overdone the. The naming.

Lee: 01:46:15

I have a lot of thoughts about this, so I'm going to restrain myself. I think for simplicity's sake. I would say that my hope for advancing the Enneagram is that people understand the importance of clear thinking.

I'm a broken record. Understand the importance of bringing clear thinking to their lives, whether they're using the Enneagram or not.

In the world that we're in, there is so much mis and disinformation and so much noise and so much analysis that it's a really loud, chaotic place.

And that I hope that learning how to think more clearly and using tools like the Enneagram model to see ourselves clearly enough that we can understand and have flexibility in our perspectives, to be able to have civil conversations with other people who think differently than we do. Because in the end, the Enneagram's just nine different ways of seeing reality and filtering reality. Right.

I'm going to get to quote you one more time on that. It's my favorite definition of the Enneagram. If you haven't heard me say it before, you'll hear me say it now.

Nine different ways of filtering reality is the best definition I have heard of the Enneagram and it's Seth Creekmore's There you go. He's just writhing in discomfort while I go on.

But to have an ability to have enough separation between who your personality tells you you are, between the over identification of who you are are and who you think you have to be, that you can just be a human being with different thoughts and emotions and opinions than other people and have just be half a shade braver to allow them to think their thing without trying to change them and be neighbors, be human neighbors with one another with just a little bit of love for them as a human. Even if you hate one another. Right. And it takes tools to be able to do that.

So my hope is that the Enneagram can be updated enough to be applicable enough without jargon, without dogma, just the simplest parts of the theory that it can be accessible to more people, even at that small level. They never have to go to an Enneagram workshop. Just understand different people think differently than I do in some real specific ways.

And there's a logic to why they're doing it. And they're doing it to feel safe, period. I hope that message can get out.

Creek: 01:49:15

Yeah, I'm going to cheat here. I have a few that will be brief.

But first of all, I mean, just practically speaking, I hope people walk away from this being like, there are different models of the Enneagram, and I need to make sure that I am aware of what those differences are. If nothing else, that.

And those models are based off of implicit or explicit biases, based off of assumed beliefs about the nature of self, about the nature of the universe.

Fundamental questions of what it is to be human and how you answer those questions will filter into how you explain the Enneagram and, you know, how you make your coffee. I don't know. So I think that. I think also my growth in the Enneagram has been slowly coming to terms of having a less nounified identity.

Lindsey: 01:50:16

And.

Creek: 01:50:18

Learning and embracing verb states and processes. And that feels really, really uncomfortable because we want certainty and stability.

And I think with the Enneagram is that tool that helps us, as you're saying, Seth, name the ways in which we are trying to keep ourselves stable. And also gives us the tools to de. Name so that we can continue to be a process, so we can continue to uncover the adventure that's in front of us.

And I think in all of that is intense, intentional curiosity about yourself, about the stories you're telling yourself, about the assumptions, the assumptions you make about who you are, about who others are. The intention versus perception, or intention versus impact. Impact. There it is. There it is. I always forget that word. Yeah.

But also intense curiosity about what you're learning, what you're integrating into your life. And in some ways, the thing that seems most obvious to you is the thing that you need to question the most so that you.

Not necessarily to be more sure, but so that you can hold it Looser.

Lindsey: 01:51:52

And tighter and tighter.

Creek: 01:51:54

Yes, there we go. And doing all of that in community with people you disagree with, with people that. With people like you three as well, that I do disagree with.

Lee: 01:52:08

Sometimes noticed it, Paul.

Creek: 01:52:13

But who I love very dearly. And I. I can't imagine having to do this by myself.

But yes, y' all, find yourself some friends like this that are thoughtful, kind, compassionate, know how to fight back and. And just kind of want to take the world by the horns and have a good time and, you know, weird. What is it our motto? Serious humans.

Lindsey: 01:52:48

Serious work for unserious humans.

Creek: 01:52:50

There it is. There it is. Serious work for unserious humans. And again, just that. Yeah, I think that's just really important. So I love you all. Love you, listeners.

Thank you for listening and yeah, please, we would love to. To talk to you more. We'll be on the interwebs. All four of us have the capacity and ability and the will to coach anyone that wants to be coached.

Lee and I are actually working on a program currently for personal development that we're really excited about and so kind of keep. Keep an eye on socials for that as well. But with that. Thank you.

Lindsey: 01:53:34

Thank you. Thank you for being with us on this journey.

Abram: 01:53:37

Of course. Be with you.

Lee: 01:53:40

And also with you.

Creek: 01:53:47

Thanks for listening to Fathoms in an Enneagram podcast. If this episode affected you in some way, we'd love it if you would share it with a friend or family member.

Don't forget to check out the show notes for ways to connect with us and continue your serious work as an unserious human. All right. Literally take five. Okey dokey. Turn off the fans. All right. Do you want to try, though, every other word again?

Lindsey: 01:54:30

Yeah.

Creek: 01:54:31

Okay. Just you two. Go.

Lindsey: 01:54:35

Welcome to another episode of Fathoms. And.

Abram: 01:54:46

What'd you say? Enneagram.

Lindsey: 01:54:50

Enneagram.

Abram: 01:54:56

There's a child. Can't you tell them to put duct tape over its mouth?

Lindsey: 01:55:06

Is that why your kids are all quiet right now?

Abram: 01:55:08

Amy? Oh, boy.